MJS, I’m afraid that personal relations in China–I mean the most normal, everyday things–do inevitably involve politics. Not necessarily grand political questions, mostly just local power relations.
Want to teach English? Well, China gives new meaning to “school politics.” Hope you get along with your bosses, because you have no rights to speak of. Want to do some business there? Hope you’re comfortable with the local power-holders, because they could take away everything if they thought nobody important would defend you.
Meet someone special? Better think what the repercussions might be, before you get her in trouble. This varies from place to place, and from occupation to occupation, but it is a serious concern. Fornication is on the books as a legal offense–against Chinese values, they say–and it is prosecuted. And then there’s the question of fornication with YOU, a foreigner. Communism may be dead, but many of its social controls are still in place, particularly outside the big eastern cities.
Are you religious? Then you are perfectly free to practice any faith you choose, so long as it is one of the government-controlled forms of Patriotic (“Un-Roman”) Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, or Taoism.
I don’t know about you, but these several areas account for most of my waking life.
My first post… the excitement is overwhelming.
To add to the discussion on Mainlanders as compared to Chinese here in Taiwan, I found there was a big difference between they way these two groups act in a third country.
In my case, it was the U.S. I just came from grad school (a large engineering graduate department at a nationally-ranked state school). Naturally, East Asians were well represented (Mainlanders comprising the largest group of grad students).
The Chinese from Taiwan made friends with the other students more easily, went to parties held by Indian, Korean, American students, and (although many complained of boredom in the US) got along quite well. Mainlanders, on the other hand, were clannish, generally unfriendly, and seemed to be in ‘survival mode’. So Taiwanese were pretty well-liked, while Mainlanders were looked upon unfavorably by many people (including other Asians and by American students).
That may explain why Mainlanders complain about racism so much in the US… their relatively anti-social behavior doesn’t exactly build bridges between cultures.
To sum up… Taiwenese have a better grasp on what it takes to build relationships, to work collaboratively in groups and to succeed with personal charisma. After spending 2 years around both types of people, I have really come to appreciate the folks here in Taiwan.
[quote=“WarMonkey”]My first post… the excitement is overwhelming.
To add to the discussion on Mainlanders as compared to Chinese here in Taiwan, I found there was a big difference between they way these two groups act in a third country. In my case, it was the U.S. I just came from grad school (a large engineering graduate department at a nationally-ranked state school). Naturally, East Asians were well represented (Mainlanders comprising the largest group of grad students).
The Chinese from Taiwan made friends with the other students more easily, went to parties held by Indian, Korean, American students, and (although many complained of boredom in the US) got along quite well. Mainlanders, on the other hand, were clannish, generally unfriendly, and seemed to be in ‘survival mode’. So Taiwanese were pretty well-liked, while Mainlanders were looked upon unfavorably by many people (including other Asians and by American students). That may explain why Mainlanders complain about racism so much in the US… their relatively anti-social behavior doesn’t exactly build bridges between cultures. To sum up… Taiwenese have a better grasp on what it takes to build relationships, to work collaboratively in groups and to succeed with personal charisma. After spending 2 years around both types of people, I have really come to appreciate the folks here in Taiwan.[/quote]
Yah, if you drive a nice beemer, wear expensive brand-name clothes with CC linked to your daddy’s account, spend 30USD per drink, and go KTV all the time, then you can hang out with the Taiwanese and the HK crowd who come to US to study. They’re pretty clannish too.
there’s a huge difference between people who study in the us for undergrad and people who go to grad school there. the beemer set would be at business school, not an engineering grad school.
One thing I love about the Taiwanese (not Chinese) is that they are far more tolerant, especially of religion, than the Chinese and perhaps even my fellow Americans. When I lived in China and in Atlanta, I always was teased, denigrated, and told that I wasn’t a real Christian (the latter in Atlanta) because I was a Catholic. In China I can’t go to a real Catholic Church because the city I was living in didn’t have one of the churchs that only foreigners could go to.
Taiwanese, on the other hand, are very open-minded about religion. They even tolerate those annoying Mormon missionaries that I learned to hate so much in the U.S. (although many tell me that after their encounters that they find the Mormons too pushy and aggressive). Taiwan is a hodgepodge of different cultures and religions, and to most Taiwanese, it really doesn’t matter what your religion is.
Also, I remember being in China when the U.S. air force accidently bombed the Chinese embassy in the then-Yugoslavia. Of course, all were brainwashed into believing that the evil, hegemonistic U.S. government did it intentionally. This was a strain on many friendships and made my departure a sad one. The departure was forced by the way as my visa was not extended in the aftermath of the accident.
Most in China insist that Taiwan is a part of its territory and if it wasn’t for the Americans, Taiwan would lovingly embrace its motherland. I tell them that most Taiwanese don’t want to be part of the PRC, and they say that it can’t be true. Everyone should want to be a part of the glorious New China.
I think most Chinese people can be really nice, but while an earlier posted wanted to get politics out of it, the government in China has so engrained politics into the minds of the people it is really difficult to take politics out of the equation.
Woah… were did that come from? You really have no idea what you’re talking about. Really. Where did you get your Master’s or Ph.D from, Kenny?
Most Taiwanese students in the US I’ve met (at two large American universities) are just like they are here. They’re the typical middle class Taiwanese who went to universities like Dong-hai and Sung Shan, etc. and want a career change or want to advance their study. They go to the States to get Master’s degrees, MBAs included. Their lives are just like they are here… they watch TV and go to Starbucks in their free time.
They got the money for their education from their middle-class parents who worked so hard and saved money over their entire lifetime, and now want to invest in their children’s education. They also get money from Teaching/Research Assistantships which waive all tuition expense and provide a small but adequate salary.
Out of the dozens and dozens of Taiwanese grad students I’ve met in the US, I can’t think of even one who resembles what Kenny has described.
Did you have a different experience when you were a grad student, Kenny? Please share.
but are those kids there for undergrad or grad school? keep in mind the boston area is a magnet for rich foreigners to send their spoiled brats for undergrad. grad school is a totally different manner. you NEED to be rich to send your kids to america for undergrad. $30k a year with no financial aid available sees to that. grad school you’re basically getting paid to attend.
[quote=“mfaass”]I know you’d like to get politics out of the equation, but my belief is that’s hard to do for Chinese people. My interactions with Taiwanese show me that this can be done here. It is very difficult to have Chinese friend that does not try and tell you how great everything is in China. Whether it’s basketball or economic development. In the course of arguing over these “social” things the topic will gradually get brought back to politics somehow.
I also find that Taiwanese are much more accepting of general criticism of things in their country. If you make one implied negative comment about China to a Chinese look out! They’ll start WWIII right on the spot, and almost the first words I hear are “You’ve been corrupted by your western decadent lifestyle”, or something else in an attempt to minimize the validity of your argument.[/quote]
wow! … there may be more common ground between westeners and the mainland chinese than you’d think…
reading this post i realised that if you substitute the words “China/Chinese” with “America/Americans” it remains a very accurate comparison…
So they are brainwashed, what are we Westerners? What’s the difference between learning and brainwashing? We learn from our enviorment to love, hate, or feel indifferent about our country. In the same way Taiwanese are ‘brainwashed’ into wanting independence, reunification, or not giving a damn. There’s nothing wrong with loving your country. I don’t find the Chinese much different than a lot of Americans I’ve met in how they feel, misguided or otherwise, about their country.
GOPBill
[quote=“wix”]What about the xiaojies on either side of the Taiwan Strait? No need to involve any politics in this question.
Of course in China there are a lot more to choose from, but imho Taiwanese women have some special quality which I cannot quite express in words, but I am certain that it exists.[/quote]
The women in China varry in apearance by region, both fashion and in other qualities like hight and facial features. In my OPINION Chinese women in general are more attractive than Taiwanese, especially Northeast Chinese women. The women there are very consious of their appearance and try to dress well, which they do, despite the otherwise bad conditions (my shoes were kept scrached and dusty). Many Taiwanese women are like this, but many more just seem to walk out of the house in whatever came to hand first. A lot of Taiwanese women also dress like they are much younger than they are (in their style, I mean, but of course thats normal so they’re not really trying to look younger). I’ve got to say riding around on the MRT there have been few times I’ve not found something nice to stare at, but I still miss NE Chinese women.
GOPBill
[quote=“plasmatron”][quote=“mfaass”]I know you’d like to get politics out of the equation, but my belief is that’s hard to do for Chinese people. My interactions with Taiwanese show me that this can be done here. It is very difficult to have Chinese friend that does not try and tell you how great everything is in China. Whether it’s basketball or economic development. In the course of arguing over these “social” things the topic will gradually get brought back to politics somehow.
I also find that Taiwanese are much more accepting of general criticism of things in their country. If you make one implied negative comment about China to a Chinese look out! They’ll start WWIII right on the spot, and almost the first words I hear are “You’ve been corrupted by your western decadent lifestyle”, or something else in an attempt to minimize the validity of your argument.[/quote]
wow! … there may be more common ground between westeners and the mainland Chinese than you’d think…
reading this post I realised that if you substitute the words “China/Chinese” with “America/Americans” it remains a very accurate comparison… [/quote]
and yet the majority of americans on this board are the ones who complain loudest about its failings. or are those people honorary europeans because they don’t fit in with your stereotype of the raving american nationalist?
Flipper has it right. I can’t remember ever seeing a large protest in the States (in my lifetime) where Americans burned the flags of another nations or surrounded foreign embassies or chanted ‘F&$k Europe’ or ‘F&$k China’, etc. We just don’t do that. Most Americans are confident and proud of our country’s accomplishements. Considering the degree to which so much of the world hates America, it’s a genuine miracle that Americans don’t hate much of the world in return. We’re too busy watching TV sitcoms, eating junk food, and driving SUVs around to be nationalistic.
The media in America doesn’t get us riled up in a nationalistic frenzy, unlike the media in Korea, China, France, etc.
But back to the topic at hand. Taiwanese (focusing on the girls now)- damn cute. Mainland Chinese girls- still weird but improving greatly. The only problem with the Mainland girls is that there are not enough of them. There’s a MAJOR population imbalance in China due to the One-Child policy. Too many sons, not enough daughters (many aborted or killed after birth).
The media in America doesn’t get us riled up in a nationalistic frenzy, unlike the media in Korea, China, France, etc. [/quote]
Now you must have been watching a different news channel to the rest of the world, because the news we’ve been watching during the last few years has shown the govt. orchestrated media causing the american public being riled up into a nationalistic, flag waving, patriotic-aggresive frenzy which culminated in the carpet bombing of one country and full scale invasion of another… now that’s pretty damn riled up…
That said, Flipper i agree that most american posters here at forumosa are of the more restrained, intelligent, non-overly-nationalistic persuation, and they do, like you say admit to and criticize the shortcomings of the u.s. and i for one am glad that there are so many americans out there like you who do have their heads on straight…
[quote=“hexuan”]Notice every thread on this board ends up a discussion of America. Plus ca change.[/quote]Yes, this is the “Chinese on the mainland compared to those in Taiwan” thread, Don’t you have your own thread in play in, “America is a poof” or something ? Now, boogger off.
and yet the majority of Americans on this board are the ones who complain loudest about its failings. or are those people honorary Europeans because they don’t fit in with your stereotype of the raving American nationalist? [/quote]
I’d like to be an honorary European. Who do I write to for that? Chiac, Tony?
GOP
Bill
