Chinese orgs supresses Taiwanese in United States

Politics Taiwan Politics
1

Chinese officials sometimes forget that residents and persons in America adhere to a different set of rules from their motherland.

The International Cultures Parade takes place in New York City every year. It is supposed to celebrate the diverse cultures of immigrants and their collective efforts leads to a brilliant and beautiful festival. However there is a dark side…

Throughout the various years since 1986, China has consistently tried their best to block the people of Taiwan (as well as Tibet) from marching. They have succeeded in many fronts. Taiwan cannot march as Taiwan, and Tibet must march the very last or not march at all.

Sometimes China goes so low as to send people to block the Taiwanese physically from marching. In 2004, the Taiwanese got around it the by having the parade officials tell the Chinese thugs to leave. The thugs didn’t have a choice but to go but would not do so without shouting and cursing at the top of their lungs. They did their best to ruin the mood.

But that was on top of China refusing to let us march earlier, so various forces told the city that it was discrimination. As a result the city said that if Taiwan were to be excluded, they would revoke the marching permit entirely and no one would get to march. At this, China had to concede.

But usually they don’t. Sometimes they send hundreds of their people to ‘pass through us’ when setting up before the march.

In 2004 Taiwan marched under F for Formosa although China insisted that we march behind them. China did a lot of underhanded tactics to change things last minute, so there was an entire charade of negotiations. The Taiwanese were not even certain where they would march until hours before.

Recently the Chinese organizations score poor attendance at the International Immigrants Foundation meetings. They just come for the parade.

If one thing is consistent, its that every year will be a fight. This year, in the months leading up to the march, China will try its best to block Taiwan again. They will say that we must march behind them or not march at all. Again, people will be sent to annoy us. They will also tell the Tibetans that there is no seperate culture, and that the Tibetans must march with them or not march at all. They will use their numbers and throw their weight around.

2

I’ve never even heard of this parade. Where is it in NYC?

3

For a parade about cultures, organizations should not be put under country headings and use country flags. What’s the point? They are all (supposed to be) cultural organizations in the US, they don’t belong to a particular country.

4

I guess the USA only has White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic cultures then?

5

Exactly, thanks for agreeing to our predicament.

Not all Caucasians share the same culture, nor do all Asians, Hispanics, etc etc. Don’t forget that there are Middle Eastern cultures too, would you consider them ‘White’ or ‘Black’? But then again you should be the last to say anything considering your hostility towards Caucasian males who marry Asian women.

Anyway, there are other ways to solve this. The International Immigrants Foundation is supposed to bring together immigrants in America, not have political squabbles.

6

Wow, the machine even works over there???

7

No, I mean you have participants like the Fukien Fraternal Association, etc. This and others may be old Chinese American organizations dating to before the Chinese Civil War. The point is, they are cultural organizations started in the US. What countries are these supposed to be belong to?

8

Exactly, thanks for agreeing to our predicament.[/quote]

I think your “predicament” is exacerbated by the parade being organized by country name A-Z. They are followed by “cultural groups.” I don’t understand this organization for the parade. The original intent for this parade is to put down political differences, but I think with this format, they are asking for trouble.

I think the Taiwanese Association of America and other “Taiwanese-specific” organizations in the US are frowned upon by not only PRC supporters but apparently also by many ROC supporters. These, like FAPA and WUFI, are almost without exception Tai-du (and anti-KMT, pro-DPP) organizations – otherwise they wouldn’t have been created outside the ROC system of “Chinese” organizations.

9

To be specific I’m just citing some of the the US Census ethnic background generic identity that Americans are suppose to subscribe to indicate that assimiation is taking place.

I don’t doubt there are ethnic Blacks or Whites. But like Zeugimite points out they are not divided by countries.

I mean to be quite honest, immigrants from Singapore, HK, PRC and ROC are Chinese. So why are you trying to bring Old World political issues into the New World.

See most people come to the USA to start over again as the myth goes. What you are trying to do is just bring over Old World issues most Chinese immigrants were trying to get away from in the first place.

10

Exactly, thanks for agreeing to our predicament.[/quote]

I think your “predicament” is exacerbated by the parade being organized by country name A-Z. They are followed by “cultural groups.” I don’t understand this organization for the parade. The original intent for this parade is to put down political differences, but I think with this format, they are asking for trouble.

I think the Taiwanese Association of America and other “Taiwanese-specific” organizations in the US are frowned upon by not only PRC supporters but apparently also by many ROC supporters. These, like FAPA and WUFI, are almost without exception Tai-du (and anti-KMT, pro-DPP) organizations – otherwise they wouldn’t have been created outside the ROC system of “Chinese” organizations.[/quote]

We are not the only ones having problems, I mean you can imagine the tension when Palestinian groups try to march as well.

Zeugmite: Should organizations then march alphabetically by organization name rather than country? You’re right, the whole country or nationality thing is the source of the problem. Its an idea that could possibly be pushed, but I’m not certain if people will be quite happy. Any other ideas?

11

I have no idea how the NYC parades are run, but your version sounds like bizarre fantasy. You’re telling us that “China”, as in the People’s Republic of China’s government, gets to decide who marches in the parade? Gimme a break.

You’re really talking about Chinese cultural organizations that have political view-points that happen to disagree with you, and believe ‘F for Formosa’ is offensive to the broader Chinese community. And frankly, NYC has no right to pull the “march permit”; the discussion, I’m sure, was probably about NYC pulling any city-provided funding to support the parade.

In San Francisco, there was a similar dilemma involving the Falun Gong’s attempts to march in the parade. The local organizers were far more determined than the NYC version, apparently. They just said, if you pull our funding, we’ll move our parade elsewhere in the Bay Area. The San Francisco city supervisors folded.

In the long run, this discussion is moot. Ardent “Taiwanese” represent 20% of Taiwan’s population, which itself represents 1.7% of the world’s “Chinese” population. In other words, “Formosans” represent about 0.3% of the world’s Chinese population. As long as you guys keep hanging out with us Chinese, your identity is gonna get swamped. In 50-100 years or so, even most Chinese won’t understand what ‘Taiwanese’ are. You guys should probably start holding a separate Taiwanese New Years parade in Taiwantown.

As far as “if” overseas Chinese organizations should play an active role in Chinese affairs… absolutely. Without overseas Chinese communities, China (and Taiwan) wouldn’t be where they are today. Without Hawaii-raised Sun Yat-sen and the enthusastic support of overseas Chinese communities, China would’ve been stuck in the Imperial age for who knows how much longer. The overseas Chinese communities also played a major role in supporting Taiwan’s early economy. And in return, overseas Chinese communities are partly thriving because of their economic/social ties with the Chinese/Taiwanese economies today. It’s too bad if non-Chinese are “bothered” by the association, but I applaud it wholeheartedly. It’s a mode of operation that has served the broader Chinese civilization very well for centuries.

Just as the Jewish diaspora have found with Israel, I believe overseas Chinese understand the importance of strong ties with China, and will continue to celebrate + preserve their Chinese identity.

12

You stand corrected:

  1. Turns out the IFF is a NGO of the UN. So yes, the PRC (you read that correctly) does use its weight on these matters. They also began spending a heck of a lot of money on the parade itself.

  2. I believe the infrastructure in Taiwan was largely funded and initially built by the Japanese. So in regards to Taiwan, I’m not going to give much credit to the Chinese for that which regarded Taiwan as a ‘throwaway’ province. And that they did.

  3. In the United States, many Taiwanese businesses and communities are not built or funded by the Chinese what-so-ever. In fact during the 928 earthquakes, how much money did the Chinese communities donate? Compare that to the amount of aid and funding that other organizations gave during the same period. Compare that with the amount that Taiwanese organizations regularly give to China each year. I rest my cast on that.

Anyway I don’t think you should consider me a “Chinese Brother” considering you treat us like strangers when we really needed you. All talk, no substance.

  1. Its okay, we know you don’t consider Falun Gong as people anyway. I don’t believe they marched in the Lunar New Years Parade in San Francisco. I’m not sure, still verifying. In New York however, they had the largest contingent. So if they were not in California, it may explain why they had an extra thousand marching for them in NYC.
13

  1. So you should appreciate that Taiwan is even in the event. For the last time people checked ROC wasn’t even in the UN.

  2. Wow a true TI Japanophile, never thought I meet one that couldn’t speak Taiwanese. Yes and all the gold the KMT liberated from the mainland didn’t do an iota of good for Taiwan.

So why don’t you march under “J” for Japan and side step the whole issue in NYC. :laughing:

  1. Oh come on now, who has ever mistaken an ABC like you to be “Chinese.” Among Chinese you are 100% Twinkie Bananna. Only “foriegners” call you “Chinese” because your of skin color they will never be seen as “American” without a hyphen.

  2. That’s because NYC is poor now. If FLG can pay the fees, they can march. But honestly they are not the largest contingency in the parade, unless you can’t the Chinese apart because they all look a like now. :laughing:

14

The “IFF”? What? And the PRC runs the UN to the degree that it dictates how a UN NGO runs its parades in New York? This isn’t even an Oliver Stone movie.

As far as everything else you said, it’s all a matter of your opinion. I don’t really have any interest in debating your opinion. You have these preconceived notions, and I doubt you’re really interested in updating them. I certainly have my own notions of identity and value, and you haven’t said anything remotely insightful to help me in updating mine.

I’m just glad there’s a lot more folks that share my opinion, and that the folks sharing my opinion are just growing in wealth and power every day. On the other hand, your opinion is likely destined for the dust-bin of history.

Let me clue you in on something. Chinese civilization is relatively unique for its long history of cultural + political consistency and integrity over the past 2000 years. I’m not claiming superiority here, and I’m not claiming that China has “always been the same”. I’m just making an observation that Mediterranean, European, Indus, and other “similar” imperial civilizations have all disintegrated over time, while the Chinese largely have a shared historical political/cultural record.

None of this comes as an accident. Mankind tends towards entropy. It’s far, far easier to destroy a nation than it is to build one. So, what this tell me is that thanks to long-standing Chinese cultural/intellectual tradition: the Chinese are determined, the Chinese have long memories, the Chinese favor unity, and the Chinese value tradition. This hasn’t changed, and this won’t change.

I’m not making any specific predictions here about Taiwan, since this “tradition” is general and isn’t about preserving concrete borders. Taiwan, in 50 or 100 years, might be part of the Chinese state, or might be just another independent island ‘nation’ on the Pacific Rim. But I for one believe China, the civilization will still be here. She will be wealthy, strong, and a source of pride for all those who consider themselves Chinese.

The question of whether ‘F for Formosa’ ever marches in the 2005 NYC parade is really such a meaningless one. You can hand-wring about the overseas Chinese communities attachment to China all that you want, but sooner or later, you’ll just have to accept it. These huaqiao communities, whether in NYC, Indonesia, or Costa Rica are here to stay.

15

If Japan did so much good for Taiwan, why do current generations of Japanese perceive the country as a cheap tourist destination with locals who are obsessed with Old Japanese culture?

AC: How do you know Shrimpcrackers can’t speak Taiwanese?

16

Because even Taiwanese speaking individuals bump into their mainland Minnan speaking counterparts eventually in the USA and have the epiphany “Oh we’re not that different after all”

Let’s put it this way, if an ABC was fluent in Taiwanese and all things Taiwanese would they be asking for advise on how to start a Taiwanese cultural program in the USA on a forumosa?

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]Because even Taiwanese speaking individuals bump into their mainland Minnan speaking counterparts eventually in the USA and have the epiphany “Oh we’re not that different after all”

Let’s put it this way, if an ABC was fluent in Taiwanese and all things Taiwanese would they be asking for advise on how to start a Taiwanese cultural program in the USA on a forumosa?[/quote]

That reminds me of two true stories.

I. In the early 90s, a provincial Hoklo Taiwanese went to Xiamen across the strait in mainland China to do business. Most public places you hear Mandarin, but somebody spoke to him in the local dialect. The TWese was really happy, and said, “Why! Have you lived in Taiwan?” Answer was no. He was really puzzled, “Wait, then how did you learn to speak our Taiwanese language?”

II. An ABC TWnese in the US, really gung-ho about independence, said, “I will raise my children to speak Taiwanese, just like my parents raised me.” Then at some later time, he revealed that when he went to Taiwan, and his elder relative was telling him about news in Taiwanese, he was bored because he couldn’t understand anything. “The vocabulary was too advanced,” he said.

18

So you are a “Japanophile” if you are aware of the historical fact that the Japanese built the initial wave of infrastructure in Taiwan?

Oh, and the gold myth too!

Oh, that’s gooooood, AC. I needed a laugh today.

You know, it cracks me up. Do you and CCTang think that you’ll get a gold watch from the PRC or something when they come over? Don’t you know anything about authoritarians like those murderers who run the CCP? They shoot their friends – just as the thousands of mainlanders murdered by the KMT when they came over after 1949. Like as not they’ll simply put a bullet through your heads and dump you in a ditch somewhere.

Vorkosigan

19

So how did the KMT buy the USA alliance if they came over to Taiwan with no money. Where did the kagillion dollars the KMT have come from? Even if you robbed all the entire Taiwanese population at the time, you don’t end up with a kagillion dollars the KMT has under its control now.

If TI mythology is true that Taiwan was broke and the KMT was broke, then where’s the money to start all the intiatives on Taiwan?

The secret slush fund that Japan donated to Taiwan shortly after WWII.
:roflmao:

20

Simple-
1)US taxpayers give aid to ROC.
2)Given the “Party-State” system in place, KMT allocates funds any way they wish, including their own pockets
3) Which includes funnelling money back to right-wing “China Lobby” politicians in the US
4) who ensure that US aid keeps flowing.