[quote=“smell the glove”]And the entry on “ketchup”:
If this really is the case, I’d like to find out what character “kôe” represents. The Amoy dialect is essentially Minnanhua. So for those of you that speak Taiwanese, what in the hell could “kôe” represent that would somehow mean pickled fish or shellfish?
Brainwash is from Chinese?! That’s certainly interesting. Chop suey is indeed from 雜碎 and was transliterated from Cantonese (or maybe even Toisanese/Taishanhua depending on when the term was first used). Of course, 雜碎 means random stuff. So when people order chop suey in the west, they are literally ordering a stir fry of a bunch of random stuff. Back in high school, when I brought some of my friends to an authentic Chinese restaurant, they were baffled to find that chop suey and eggrolls were not on the menu! Oh the horror! What are we to eat now?!
You’d have thought Wang would be on the list for sure. I couldn’t help wandering about Xiao Wang Xian Sheng in my Chinese course though, seemed a bit obviously an attempt to mess with us.
[quote]Old English
[edit]
Pronunciation
IPA: /wang/Etymology
Cognate with Old Saxon wang, Old High German -wang (in holzwang), Old Norse wangr.[/quote]
OK, after some internet searching, it would appear that the original Chinese word for ketchup (koechiap) is 鮭汁. The character 鮭 means salmon, however, from what I’ve read, in Amoy/Taiwanese/Hokkien, it means salted fish. Thus, 鮭汁 means salted fish juice, or brine of fish.
Can anyone corroborate that 鮭 means “salted fish”?
One thing to bear in mind here: Taiwanese “kôe” is pronounced almost the same as Mandarin “guĭ” so we’re actually talking about a sound that is closer to an English “g” than “k”.
It seems to have a couple of different meanings (Taiwanese hanzi first, then POJ, then Mandarin):
鮭 (kôe): 鮭
肉鮭 (bah-kôe): 肉醬
I can’t find any mention of salted fish. Salmon appears to be just salmon. By the way, 鮭 has two readings in Taiwanese - kôe and kê.
In Taiwanese, as in Cantonese, 汁 often stands where you might expect 醬 in Mandarin.
茄 is pronounced kiô in Taiwanese, meaning this could also be a possibility. This would depend on the time that tomatoes arrived in southern China. Also note that there are multiple ways to say “tomato” in Taiwanese, not all of which fit with the sound of ketchup:
Interestingly, the Taiwanese reading of 果汁 is kóe-chiap - one that as an amateur I would think a more likely source. But I’m not one to argue with the authorities.
So, end result: inconclusive. It could originally have been 鮭汁 (salmon sauce), distorted through the centuries and a couple of intervening languages.
In England, old people, when surprised or shocked, say ‘Ooh, I say!’, which seems to come from something like ‘Wa sai’ that is said here, though it may come from Japanese originally.
I also have a theory that ‘bullshit’ may have sprung up in America from the Chinese ‘bu shi’.
One thing to bear in mind here: Taiwanese “kôe” is pronounced almost the same as Mandarin “guĭ” so we’re actually talking about a sound that is closer to an English “g” than “k”.[/quote]
The English “g” and “k” are close enough that it is very plausible that a sound which started as “g” morphed into a “k” over time.
[quote=“Taffy”]It seems to have a couple of different meanings (Taiwanese hanzi first, then POJ, then Mandarin):
鮭 (kôe): 鮭
肉鮭 (bah-kôe): 肉醬
I can’t find any mention of salted fish. Salmon appears to be just salmon. By the way, 鮭 has two readings in Taiwanese - kôe and kê. [/quote]
OK, after more searching, the Wikipedia discussion page on Ketchup seems to have some answers from the Japanese. Most seem to agree that the term came from Amoy/Xiamen, but one dissenting opinion is that the word came from the 漳州 dialect. Either way, it’s around that region and the characters 鮭汁 appears to be the most logical candidate that I’ve seen.
In reading the Wikipedia entry, it appears that the first time tomatoes were added to the original ketchup recipe was in the US. Hence, the term “tomato ketchup” as opposed to other types of ketchup. This fact makes 茄汁 an unlikely candidate for the original Chinese characters.
Actually, I believe it came from 叩頭 (kou4 tou2). But from the way kowtow is pronounced (kau-tau as opposed to cow-toe), it would appear that it was most likely transliterated from Cantonese.
I’m surprised no one else has offered coolie as yet (from ku li, bitter labour).
There’s an interesting suggestion that dingkum, as in “fair dingkum”?, an old Australian expression meaning “for real?” comes from a Chinese dialect and refers to real gold. Taiwanese for gold is kim, so too Cantonese and probably Chao Zhou also.
But how does “dingkum” relate to “真金”. Sure, 金 is pronounced kum. But “ding” for 真? Or is this some wacky romanization system? Cantonese tongyong perhaps?
No, no, we believe you, in fact, I also have it on good authority that the reason people call George W Bush a lil’ pussy is because of the Chinese xiao bu sh yi.
HG[/quote]
Yes, I was aware that the term was referring to Cantonese. That’s still puzzling because 真 is pronounced like “zan”. No where is a “d” sound to be found. Assuming the article is true, I’m guessing it’s probably derived the Taishan/Toisan/Hoisan/台山 dialect.
HG[/quote]
Yes, I was aware that the term was referring to Cantonese. That’s still puzzling because 真 is pronounced like “zan”. No where is a “d” sound to be found. Assuming the article is true, I’m guessing it’s probably derived the Taishan/Toisan/Hoisan/台山 dialect.[/quote]
That’s right, I remember thinking the same thing, then I became convinced it might have come from ding 頂 in a dialect or sumfin.
During a weekend afternoon infomercial, I saw a lady peddling a wok along with a “wok chan”. For the life of me, I couldn’t figure out what a “wok chan” was until they showed a picture of a
鍋鏟
. Grrr…
So toss in “wok chan” as well, although I don’t think it’s reached popular usage yet.
