[quote]Thousands of Fans Gather for Madonna Concert in Rome
Hundreds of Italians have gathered in front of her hotel and rushed to Rome’s most chic street in hopes of getting a glimpse of the American pop star, who is to perform in a concert Sunday night at the Olympic stadium. Fans started pouring in to the stadium since early afternoon, while some had camped out to get a spot right in front of the stage. Some 70,000 people were expected at the concert, which is the only Italian date of her “Confessions” tour.
A few hundred people also have gathered in front of Madonna’s hotel in downtown Rome since Saturday. A rumor that she was shopping on Via Condotti, Rome’s fashion street, sent hundreds of fans there, newspaper Il Messaggero and other dailies reported Sunday.
The concert has drawn criticism in Roman Catholic Italy, especially for Madonna’s plans to appear crucified on a mirrored cross while wearing a crown of thorns. Religious leaders have condemned the mock crucifixion as an act of hostility toward the Roman Catholic Church and as a publicity stunt in bad taste. But Madonna’s New York-based spokeswoman, Liz Rosenberg, said in an e-mail that “the context of Madonna’s performance on the crucifix is not negative nor disrespectful toward the church.”[/quote]
But some Christian leaders were “unhappy” so there is no moral difference between THAT and calling for her death or having someone stab her or cut her head off or blow her up on a bus, etc. etc. No one is better or worse than anyone else AND once in the 1500s, the Catholic Church burned someone so again, who are you to say that this is worse or better?
Excellent choice of raising this subject for discussion, fred:
[quote] Christian terrorism
[…]
Examples of Attacks and Aggression
October 2, 2004- Christian terrorist group kills 44 Hindus, wounds 118 in Northeast India.
2003- Preacher Michael Evans calls for a holy war and “cleansing” against non-Christians.
January 16, 1997- Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs nightclub.
July 27, 1996- Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs Centennial Olympic Park. Kills 1, wounds 111.
April 19, 1995- Oklahoma City bombing
1989- Mormon group kills 5 people for opposing religious teachings.
1983- Posse Comitatus militia member Gordon Kahl kills two Federal marshals in North Dakota. Three others were wounded.
1978- Christian cult “the Peoples’ Temple” leader Jim Jones allegedly kills 913 people with cyanide-laced Kool Aid. People trying to escape the compound are shot.
1976- Nearly 300 people are killed in Ireland as a result of bombings between Catholics and Protestants.
1940s- Terrorist organization Christian Identity is formed on the West Coast of the United States. Followers believe Armageddon will take place as a race war between Aryans, the “pure” people, against Jews, Muslims, and non-whites.
[edit]
Christian terrorism in the United States
In the United States, arson, firebombing and vandalism of abortion clinics, along with harassment of clinic employees and patrons have been cited as examples of terror tactics employed by anti-abortion extremists. Occasionally the perpetrators have been self-proclaimed Christians.
Eric Rudolph, for example, engaged in terrorist activities closely associated with Christian terrorism, such as the targeting of abortion clinics and the bombing of a gay nightclub; also, Rudolph had been suspected to be associated with the Christian Identity organization. However, Rudolph has himself denied such associations, writing that he “prefers Nietzsche to the Bible” and espouses an Atheistic philosophy.[1]
Many abortion opponents blame these acts of violence on individuals who have little regard for human life and groups which are quite separate from the pro-life movement or any Christian church.[2]
Christian groups with terrorist cells:
Christian Identity movement
Freedomites (also Svobodniki or Sons of Freedom, Canada, 1902-present)
Ku Klux Klan (A racist, mostly Christian, organization founded during the Reconstruction period in the former Confederate States of America)
Westboro Baptist Church
[edit]
Christian nationalist groups with terrorist cells
Lord’s Resistance Army (1987-present) (Uganda)
Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
The National Liberation Front of Tripura
God’s Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma)
Ah…but the Germans have much better terrorists and always have had. (ok, the German female terrorists are fucking ugly slags)…and “Christian” terrorists certainly haven’t been able to rack up the bodycount the Muslims have. I guess the German and Muslim pros tend to stick together.
[quote]Examples of Attacks and Aggression
October 2, 2004- Christian terrorist group kills 44 Hindus, wounds 118 in Northeast India. [/quote]
Can we see which group that was?
Calls for? So how many followed his message to actually do anything?
[quote]January 16, 1997- Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs nightclub.
July 27, 1996- Christian Identity terrorist Eric Robert Rudolph bombs Centennial Olympic Park. Kills 1, wounds 111.[/quote]
but what is this following quote?
Whoops. There goes much of your list of “terrorists” fighting for Christianity…
Were they Christian or just White? AND where did they get their training? From Abu Sayyaf and perhaps Al Qaeda and maybe even Iraqi intelligence where? in the Philippines. Whoops again…
[quote]
1989- Mormon group kills 5 people for opposing religious teachings. [/quote]
Fair point. So add up those 5 to your list.
How is this related to Christianity?
Fair point even though he “claimed” to be Christian but here he is killing adherents of his own group not others so…
Shall we tally up every civil war between Christian groups? Should the deaths in WWII be attributed to Christianity as well?
Okay. Fair point. Christians can be racists but how many people did they kill?
[quote]Christian terrorism in the United States
In the United States, arson, firebombing and vandalism of abortion clinics, along with harassment of clinic employees and patrons have been cited as examples of terror tactics employed by anti-abortion extremists.
Occasionally
the perpetrators have been self-proclaimed Christians. [/quote]
Occasionally? That’s the best that you can do?
and from your own source the above statement?!!! Really how sloppy can you be? I do not even need to challenge this since you have done so yourself.
[quote]Christian groups with terrorist cells:
Christian Identity movement
Freedomites (also Svobodniki or Sons of Freedom, Canada, 1902-present)
Ku Klux Klan (A racist, mostly Christian, organization founded during the Reconstruction period in the former Confederate States of America)
Westboro Baptist Church
[edit] [/quote]
What’s the death toll this year? over the past 10? over the past 50?
[quote]Christian nationalist groups with terrorist cells
Lord’s Resistance Army (1987-present) (Uganda)
Nagaland Rebels (1948-present) (Nagaland), including:
The National Liberation Front of Tripura
God’s Army (a rebel faction of the Karen ethnic minority in Burma) [/quote]
Fair points. These people call themselves Christian but they are not exactly anywhere near to being mainstream and they are completely condemned by the official Christian organizations. How’s that condemnation working out whenever the Religion of Peace and its adherents blow things up or kill people, call for terrorist acts? etc?
I understand your point and I appreciate it but this is really a debate about degrees. Do you believe that Christian terrorism is equally prevalent to terrorism committed by that other group? Do you think that Christian leaders tolerate and even excuse such violence when committed? or is it widely condemned? Do similar actions occur among the adherents of that Other Religion?
I think that these are valid points and worth addressing.
In the meantime, had Madonna engaged in say a similar level of behavior regarding the Relgion of Peace, how many of you would have been surprised had someone put a fatwah calling for Madonna’s death if she had? THAT really is the problem isn’t it?
Now now…no jokes about girlfriends, wives or mothers…but damn! I wouldn’t fuck her even with Rascal’s umbrella. I guess Germans just have different taste in women.
The Posse Comitatus is an intermittently active, loosely organized group of “Christian Identity” activists dedicated to survivalism, vigilantism, and anti-government agitation. Following the pseudo-religious tenets of the “Identity” movement, Posse members typically proclaim Jews to be the “synagogue of Satan,” blacks and other people of color to be subhuman “mud races,” and Northern European whites to be the “Chosen People” of Biblical prophecy. The name of the group translates from Latin to mean “power of the county,” and the Posse believes that all governmental power is rooted at the county, not Federal, level.
[…][/quote]
and here:
[quote][…]
Antisemitism, racism and origins
Many Posse members embraced the antisemitic and white supremacist beliefs of Christian Identity.
Some believe that the U.S. Federal government is illegitimate and in the hands of “ZOG,” an alleged Jewish conspiracy.
Posse charters were issued in 1969 in Portland, Oregon, by Henry Lamont Beach, a retired dry cleaner and one-time member of the Silver Shirts, a Nazi-inspired organization that was established in America after Hitler rose to power in Germany.
Occasionally? That’s the best that you can do?[/quote]
Good enough me thinks because it’s irrelevant that some do not act out of religious believes. - Never heard about a Muslim that killed for other reasons than religion?
and from your own source the above statement?!!! Really how sloppy can you be? I do not even need to challenge this since you have done so yourself.[/quote]
Highlight another part and the message “changes” - it’s a claim by others, not a certain fact:
Oh, is this now an issue like “mine is bigger than yours”? Fine, you win.
What do you think - are the Muslim terrorists near the mainstream? Because if then we would have a couple of million blowing themselves up every day.
There are also Muslim leaders that denounce and condemn the violence but you are just constantly presenting us with those that support it so your arguments work. That’s being selective at best.
Er is this the best you can do. Why do you have to stretch so far to find obscure movements like these that at best have Christian in their name but when examining the tenets of their belief, we not even approach anything close to Christianity?
I am sure that many Muslims do commit murder and other crimes that are not related to religious belief, but again, what is so funny about this is how desperately you try to scrape up fringe groups to prove that Christianity has terrorists. Many of these groups and leaders are not actually Christian. Can you imagine such a fringe group winning 70 percent of the vote in a Christian nation today? AND if it did, can you imagine the leader of a Christian nation calling for the destruction of an entire group of people because they are different? For all the fuss about Bush, he has been very careful not to paint this as a religious war. Wherein lies the difference?
Thanks. I am glad you realize that.
Well, be honest. Something gets blown up and it takes you a couple of hours before the identity of the perpetrators is known. So during that time, you think to yourself, hmmmm some crackpot White supremacist? a fundamental Buddhist? A crazed Jew? a deranged hari krishna or do you think immediately: another Islamofascist? And why? something to do with the odds? as in 99.9 percent that it most likely is the act of some Muslim group?
Then, while these groups may not be Mainstream with a capital “m” the levels of support for terrorism and such among mainstream Muslims is frighteningly large. Do you deny this?
Fine. Who are those Muslim leaders that are always speaking out and do they do so unreservedly or are there always qualifications about the need to understand x, y and z?
So you explain to me why there is a difference in “interpretation.”
Again, given the level of violence that is so cleary coming from ONE not ALL groups, why do you feel the need to “understand” or defend it. I suggest to you that the graduates of German universities these days are so infused with Critical Theory philosophy even if it is unbeknownst to them that instinctively you cannot help but examine every issue from the point of view of dialectics. We must take Party A and his concern and pair it with Party B to arrive at a solution. There are no wrongs. Morality is determined through strength and power. All voices and narratives are equally valid. So putting A and B together to “negotiate” through “communicating effectively” will solve the problem. Bullshit. Party A has just shot Party B and is raining missiles down on his family. Any negotiations have to involve sincere and genuine interest in arriving at a solution. Would you say that this is the reality of dealing with Islamofascism today? was it the norm with Communism 30 years ago? Naziism 60 years ago?
Were they Christian or just White? AND where did they get their training? From Abu Sayyaf and perhaps Al Qaeda and maybe even Iraqi intelligence where? in the Philippines. Whoops again…[/quote]
Yeah, whoops indeed. Are you into conspiracy theories now Fred? I thought that was what us lefties cooked up.
There is no credible documented evidence of an Islamist link to the Oklahoma City bombings. None. The suggestion that there was a link to the Phillipines was first made by Stephen Jones, Timothy McVeigh’s first trial lawyer. Naturally he didn’t make the claim in open court, or in trying to assist the authorities. He made it in a book he wrote after the fact.
If a leftie gave the following theory [quote]Various analysts have suggested the government had a role in a conspiracy behind the bombing, or even planned the attack, so as to have grounds for persecuting right-wing organizations in a manner similar to Nazi prosecution of legislators after the Reichstag fire.[/quote], you’d be all over them. Yet there’s just as much evidence for this as there is for an Islamic connection. (I personally don’t agree with it, I’m just the messenger).
Face it, McVeigh and Nichols got their training initially in the US military, then moved with the NRA/2nd amendment gunshow type crowd.
Those who want to read up on this a bit more can do so here.
Also, there is no denial that McVeigh was in the Philippines and that some abu Sayyaf agents happened to be staying at the very same hotel. Just a coincidence? And when did the US military teach soldiers how to blow up buildings using fertilizer?
Has anyone mentioned the Irish Catholics? I bet they could give the Moslims a run for their money all on their own, and of not throw the Protestants into the mix!
I have a Jewish friend. When she heard of the WTC attacks that morning, she phoned her mother. The first thing her mother said was, “I suppose we’ll get blamed for this.”
Also, there’s no denying that Ronald Reagan was close friends with Philippines president, Ferdinand Marcos. And Reagan liked to ride horses, a natural byproduct of which is fertilizer. More coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Ronald Reagan was directly responsible for the Oklahoma city bombing.
I say make Madonna hand in her card. Oh wait she already did. I’m truly sick of her and her attention grabbing ways. At least Sinead O’Connor had the balls to actually come right out a say what she wanted to say about the church instead of dancing around it.
Actually, I’m getting really sick of Jesus and the cross being used as decorative ornament.
I’m truly sick of her and her attention grabbing ways. At least Sinead O’Connor had the balls to actually come right out a say what she wanted to say about the church instead of dancing around it.