Church and State

[seeker4]

@pinesay

Because if it weren’t for religion, no one would help other people

then

[MaPoSquid]

[quote=“mod lang”]Okami,

There’s nothing wrong with being rich and I never said there was. There is something wrong with being rich and using your “campaign contributions” to force your domination on society for the betterment of a few versus to the detriment of the majority.

Can you understand that?[/quote]
You mean like George Soros, who donated millions to MoveOn.org and “America Coming Together”?

[mod_lang]

Your assumption that I was necessarily talking about the U.S. Republican Party only says something about your monomania with “liberals”. My point was that contrary to Okami’s assertions, it is not the intelligentsia who hold the real power, it’s those that are rich and connected who hold the real power and use that power to benefit the few at the expense of the many. This is true of just about every country, every society I can think of; human nature. University professors don’t have any real power, and any power they have doesn’t go beyond campus boundaries, even if. If you really think that academics making $43,000 a year are the “power elite” then you truly are deluded. Making the classic mistake of mistaking the university campus for the real world.

[MaPoSquid]

@mod lang

Your assumption that I was necessarily talking about the U.S. Republican Party only says something about your monomania with “liberals”.

Well, considering that the Swift Vets and Club for Growth are the only Republican-“leaning” S527 organizations out of the top 20, I’d say that you couldn’t very well have been talking about anyone else. . . .

You’re just pissed off about my Arkansas jokes, aren’t you?? :raspberry:

[bob]

Both sides of the arguement now seem to be arguing that human nature is basically selfish. I am not certain that common experience bears this out. Every day you can see people striving for higher ideals. They take care of the young, the old, the sick. They are polite and responsible and they make an effort to get along with each other, they frequently strive to become physically and emotionally intimate. They reach out intellectually to each other in forums like this. If human beings didn’t work together in pursuit of common goals they would perish.
Selfishness may be common and it may even be natural but it is by far not the whole picture. Happiness for the vast majority of people is best found in peaceful, harmonious relations with other people and selfishness is one of biggest barriers to achieving such relations. To the extent that society breeds selfishness or regards it as natural, it breeds unhappiness.

Or perhaps it is alright to suggest that all human beings are selfish in that they are naturally inclined to be happy and avoid suffering. The paradox is that happiness is best achieved in compassionate, harmonious relations with other people and it is “greed” not selfishness that is the problem. Of course then it could be argued that perhaps greed too is at odds with the larger, better parts of ourselves…

If you haven’t guessed by now this is basically the Dalai Lama’s philosophy (as I recall it) that I am espousing here.
Pinesay you might want to check out “The Art of Happiness” by the Dali Lama.

[Okami]

Vorkosigan,

You’re such a liberal, it’s actually quite sad and funny at the same time. So let me take you apart one more time.

I never mentioned Sharpton, whom I detest. If you have issues with him, that’s your affair. [quote]Clinton cheating on his wife is nothing compared to Bush cheating an entire nation into war. [/quote]

How did Bush cheat the nation into war? Let’s recall Clinton’s sins in the realm of military misadventures. There was the high altitude tank plinking that didn’t work in former yugoslavia, the aspirin factory in Sudan, cruise missile attacks on Al Qaeda when he had too much heat on him, and the complete mess that he got us into in Somalia.

If you think Clinton was less religious than Bush, put up the evidence. Your prejudices don’t count as evidence. As far as I can see, both were religious men, one deeply considered, the other believes the way a drowning man grabs a life preserver.

You’re going to give me a hard time on prejudices when you make unsubstantiated claims of opinion and dress them up as facts? Thank you Mr. Liberal.

trashed our rep in the world, gutted our environmental laws, grieviously damaged our army and our people in a pointless and illegal invasion of a nation that was no threat to the US, lined his cronies’ pockets, savaged a couple of faraway nations

Our rep was trashed long before Bush ever took office. If you don’t know that you’re either blind or just being ignorant. French hated us during Clinton’s years and the arabs weren’t any nicer either. Remember Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia? I don’t see any grievous damage to our Armed forces. This is again your opinion dressed up as fact. Yes, and weapon grade anthrax in the mail was just a hoax right? How about the succor and support of terrorism? How about the no-fly zone? The whole line his cronies pockets is BS and yet again your opinion dressed up as fact.

[quote]How are his crimes in anyway comparable to Saddam’s?

How is this sentence logically related to the last? [/quote]

Because you’ll sit there and write how horrible the invasion of Iraq was while completely ignoring the mass graves, torture rooms, rape rooms, and virtual destruction of an ethnic group(Marsh Arabs) and believe that the corrupt UN that facilitated it all is likesome heavenly body that can do no wrong and is a great brake for excesses of American power.

The problem is not that Bush prays; the problem is that the God he prays to is not love but Power, in its most authoritarian and imperialist forms. He is simply the most dangerous and destructive man we have ever had as President. That is why so many of us hate him and want him gone – for the same reason we hated Chiang, and Stalin, and Hitler, and Franco, and Peron, and all other manifestations of authoritarianism.

[quote]Okami, the only person who compared Bush to Hussein was you. I never mentioned him.

It is obvious what Bush’s real religion is from his attitude toward the world. The Patriot Act is a revelation, if you will only listen to what it says.[/quote]

Yes, but you were kind enough to put him in the same category as CHiang, Stalin, Hitler, etc. Dont’ pigeonhole me saying that the patriot act is some influence in my life. Listen we are at war and have been so for some time. We finally have a president that realized that, a shame that 3000+ people had to die in NYC for us all to realize that. Get off the ad hominem attacks and start throwing up some facts and figures, not your opinion passed down to us as some holy truth.

I’m not one of your students. You can’t pass off your judgement and feelings off on me as facts. You say a lot, but in light of reality. It comes out as a bunch of raving liberal BS. Hence why my boy is 10 points up in the polls and your boy is floundering like a fish out of water. When you have Carter speaking at DNC and Michael Moore enjoying the benefits of that party, well if your going to sleep with dogs then you’re going to get some fleas.

Four more years!
Okami

[bob]

[Quote Okami] I’m not one of your students… You say a lot, but in light of reality. It comes out as a bunch of raving liberal BS. Hence why my boy is 10 points up in the polls and your boy is floundering like a fish out of water…

Perhaps you “should” be his student.

In light of reality “period.” huh?

It comes out as liberal B.S. Hence my boy is ten points up…
Vorkosigan is a raving liberal so Bush is ahead? Double huh.

[Southpaw]

This bullshit is starting to seep into every thread…keep it in your own fucking forum!

[bob]

What thread? What forum? Who are you talking to?

[Dahudze1]

And the connection with this and Mormons in Taiwan is . . . ?

[bob]

Oh sorry, I thought we were still talking about morons.