CIA Targets Al-Zawahiri

Politics International Politics
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[quote=“Durins Bane”][quote=“porcelainprincess”]
This is why I despise you, Comrade Stalin. One hundred thousand people in Dresden were burned to death in what can only be described as an act of terrorism, and you call it a “slight nudge.”

You are utterly despicable.[/quote]

I find your moral equivalence of Dresden to terrorism both disgusting and pathetic.[/quote]
It’s not a “moral equivalence.” It’s literally and exactly equivalent, fer crissake. One hundred thousand civilians purposely fried in Dresden for no reason.

Doesn’t matter if it’s during wartime or not. Terrorism means purposely targeting civilians.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of terror, as well. You can claim that they saved lives in a land war, but there was no need to incinerate civilians in a city. A military target should have been found, instead.

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[quote="porcelainprincess

Doesn’t matter if it’s during wartime or not. Terrorism means purposely targeting civilians.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of terror, as well. You can claim that they saved lives in a land war, but there was no need to incinerate civilians in a city. A military target should have been found, instead.[/quote] :notworthy:

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So would you say that a military always must refrain from hitting targets that could be considered “civilian,” even if it means running the risk of losing the war and condemning your citizens to rule by a foreign oppressor?

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[quote=“SHARLEE”]
In any case, all what was won by killing innocent people is that you have a very angry country with people who will do anything now to help the terrorists.[/quote]
What makes you think these people were innocent? I’ve seen nothing that makes me think so.

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That’s a good question. Responses:

  1. Dresden could in no wise be construed as such. Sparing the civilians in Dresden would not have condemned the good citizens of Saskatchewan or Iowa to rule by a foreign oppressor.
  2. The issue of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is bit a tougher in light of your question, but I think the evidence is still clear that a military target would have made an equal impression upon the emperor.
  3. By the way, I’m not commenting on what happened in Pakistan (I’d only go so far as to say that it’s another example of ineptitude, as per usual), and I’m not implying that it was an act of terror either way. My off-topic ranting got set loose by a despicable and inexcusable comment by the Stalinist.

No one who makes light of a terrorist action resulting in the deaths of 100,000 civilians gets a pass in my book. That he calls me a Nazi for saying as much speaks volumes.

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Okay, I got you mixed up regarding the Holocaust. Sorry.

But I have to call bullshit again, and I think either you’ve been misinformed or are just wilfully narrow-minded. Not a single person benefitted from the bombing of Dresden. It did not need to happen. It was despicable.

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Okay, I got you mixed up regarding the Holocaust. Sorry.

But I have to call bullshit again, and I think either you’ve been misinformed or are just wilfully narrow-minded. Not a single person benefitted from the bombing of Dresden. It did not need to happen. It was despicable.[/quote]

From wikipedia (a fast source, but for the most part reliable)

[quote]
Civilian death estimates vary wildly largely as a result of propaganda figures which received widespread publicity at the time, however the most recently available evidence from Friedrich Reichart of Dresden City Museum points to 25,000 deaths, which is less than the number that died in Hamburg, but Dresden was a smaller city. Numbers between 25,000 - 140,000 have been used in official statistics with the communist authorities of Dresden increasing their estimates across time; estimates in Nazi Germany by the Ministry of Propoganda varied between 350,000 and 400,000. At that time, Dresden’s population was 600,000, but up to 200,000 refugees were living in cramped apartments and passing through Dresden as the Russians were now only fifty miles away. The entire inner city (15 square kilometres) was utterly devastated, and other quarters were damaged to some degree, the many villa quarters, however, on average much less than others.

Many of the higher estimates are based on a fake TB47 report (which has been visibly altered). However the West German Federal Archive in Koblenz discovered a genuine copy of TB47. The official “Final Report and Situation (TB47)” produced by Reich Commander of the Order Police a month after the bombings. “TB47” is probably a reasonable guide to the order of casualty numbers. It states definite figures of between 18,000 and 22,000 with estimates of final numbers of 25,000 and includes the interesting sentence "Since rumours far exceed the reality, open use can be made of the actual figures[/quote]

And again, I will say that it is very hard to determine in 2006 whether or not bombing Dresden was necessary. The war was NOT yet over, and there were anti-aircraft batteries in the city. From wikipedia again:

[quote]
The Red Army was approaching from the East and Dresden was one of two key rail routes with marshalling yards. [/quote]

So, to me, it seems like the bombing was to clear the path for the Russians.

BUT,THIS IS ALL OFF TOPIC.

Where is your response to the posts saying the people in the Pakistani homes that were bombed were not innocent at all? You call it “inept” but I don’t see why. Z. was SUPPOSED to be there, and his aids probably were there.

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Sure the US may have gotten lucky and taken out some apparatchiks, but the point you guys seem to fail to understand is that the war on terror does not giver the US the right to go dropping bombs on an ally. By the bye, that was the third raid on Pakistan this month!

Okay, lets dumb it down a tad in the hope you can grasp just what it is that many in Pakistan might be feeling right now.

Supposing Koresh and his followers were huddled in that Waco farm and instead of the ATM crew rolling up and offering them an out, a bloody great Australian bomber comes sailing through the skies and nails the lot of them (cos they were wanted on suspicion of crimes in Australia). How do you think the vast majority of Amercians would feel?

I understand you yanks are pissed off, but you are not alone. You really don’t have a monopoly on moral outrage. This war has to be fought properly.

HG

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Sure the US may have gotten lucky and taken out some apparatchiks, but the point you guys seem to fail to understand is that the war on terror does not giver the US the right to go dropping bombs on an ally. By the bye, that was the third raid on Pakistan this month!

Okay, lets dumb it down a tad in the hope you can grasp just what it is that many in Pakistan might be feeling right now.

Supposing Koresh and his followers were huddled in that Waco farm and instead of the ATM crew rolling up and offering them an out, a bloody great Australian bomber comes sailing through the skies and nails the lot of them (cos they were wanted on suspicion of crimes in Australia). How do you think the vast majority of Amercians would feel?

I understand you yanks are pissed off, but you are not alone. You really don’t have a monopoly on moral outrage. This war has to be fought properly.

HG[/quote]

I’m not mad, or even angry for that matter. :wink:

But, it seems that every time something like this happens, protests erupt, and then op-ed pieces about how horribly wrong it is to bomb, and why. This time the reason being that women and children were killed. The crucial information as I see it, is that, the bad guys were there, and the big bad guy was suposed to be there.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060116/ap_ … ida_attack

Read this piece in today’s news. The “outrage” is fizzling out, at least in the Pakistani government. WHy? Because they want forein investment, AND, I would assume, they know how “innocent” those people were.

[quote]
In Washington, a U.S counterterrorism official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the information’s sensitivity, said it is not yet known if al-Zawahri was killed in Friday’s attack.

The official said the compound that was hit has been visited in the past by significant terrorist figures. “There were strong indications that was happening again,” the official said.

With media reports out of Pakistan indicating that at least four foreigners were killed, the official said it appears that some damage was done, even if al-Zawahri was not there. “This place had a history,” the official said.[/quote]

Our bombs, their bombs. What does it matter? As allies, we have the same goals. The bombs were dropped in the right place, and it seems, at the right time.

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The most unsettling thing about the Coalition of the Willing and its war with Islamic fundamentalism is that both sides now appear willing to cross any line to get at the other.

The COW has blithely sailed past the U.N. Charter, the Geneva Conventions, the rule of (U.S. federal) law, the Bill of Rights, summary executions of Brazilian electricians – and, once again, the reckless, self-righteous slaughter of civilians – with nary an apology or glance backwards.

We’ve clearly known for a while that Islamic zealots are willing to cross any line to reach their goal of restoring an oppressive medieval hellhole spanning half the globe.

If the COW will eventually show itself unwilling to cross some line – any line – which would fundamentally distinguish it from its extremist foes though I have no clue at this point where that line might be.

Maybe some believer here can apprise us as to whether any such line exists. Is there something you just wouldn’t do in your “war on terror” because it would be going too far or do the ends pretty well justify any means at this point?

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Sure the US may have gotten lucky and taken out some apparatchiks, but the point you guys seem to fail to understand is that the war on terror does not giver the US the right to go dropping bombs on an ally. By the bye, that was the third raid on Pakistan this month!

Okay, lets dumb it down a tad in the hope you can grasp just what it is that many in Pakistan might be feeling right now.

Supposing Koresh and his followers were huddled in that Waco farm and instead of the ATM crew rolling up and offering them an out, a bloody great Australian bomber comes sailing through the skies and nails the lot of them (cos they were wanted on suspicion of crimes in Australia). How do you think the vast majority of Amercians would feel?

I understand you yanks are pissed off, but you are not alone. You really don’t have a monopoly on moral outrage. This war has to be fought properly.

HG[/quote]
What he said (in response to Mr. Smith).

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Okay so far on this thread we have English taking out targets in Boston and Aussies raiding compounds in Texas. Canadians where are you going to invade? I just want to make sure I have enough K-rations to get me my family through the winter :smiley:

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Here Here purple…

I am building my bomb shelter first thing tomorrow. :runaway:

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I heard they were targetting duck farms in the south of Taiwan, but since we all know what nice people the Cannucks are, expect a bombardment of rose petals with warnings to evacuate the area printed on the inside to be the worst of it.

HG

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This is interesting because I equate the criticisms made in the article to the complete inability by some on this thread to understand why it was such a bad idea to bomb Pakistan.

Seriously, I was out last night discussing the bombing with a group of friends, English and HK Chinese for the most part, and none of them could comprehend how Americans they’d spoken to could fail to see what a fuck up it was.

That’s not a swipe at the yanks, they like me are all for the yanks getting it right (I’m almost sick of feeling obliged to add this caveat).

HG

[quote]Army’s Iraq Work Assailed by Briton
Senior Officer Points to Cultural Ignorance In an Essay Published by the U.S. Military
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 11, 2006; Page A17

FORT LEAVENWORTH, Kan. – A senior British officer has written a scathing critique of the U.S. Army and its performance in Iraq, accusing it of cultural ignorance, moralistic self-righteousness, unproductive micromanagement and unwarranted optimism there. His publisher: the U.S. Army.[/quote]

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The Feds were installing a cash point machine? :astonished: I didn’t know that.

BroonATF

carry on…

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Oh you know, they’re flush with cash those bastards, it’s all that flogging contraband cigs, alcohol and firearms.

HG

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]

[quote]Army’s Iraq Work Assailed by Briton
Senior Officer Points to Cultural Ignorance In an Essay Published by the U.S. military
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 11, 2006; Page A17

FORT LEAVENWORTH, Kan. – A senior British officer has written a scathing critique of the U.S. Army and its performance in Iraq, accusing it of cultural ignorance, moralistic self-righteousness, unproductive micromanagement and unwarranted optimism there. His publisher: the U.S. Army.[/quote][/quote]

This goes to the root of the problem for America worldwide. To use Comrade Stalin’s own retort and direct it to those who tag along with the Bush neo-con approach:

“You just don’t understand any culture”

BroonArchives

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Does anybody have any idea what the C.O.W. Rubicon is at this point? What line won’t they cross because it’s “just going too far” with this “war on terror” thing?

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote]Army’s Iraq Work Assailed by Briton
Senior Officer Points to Cultural Ignorance In an Essay Published by the U.S. military
By Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 11, 2006; Page A17

FORT LEAVENWORTH, Kan. – A senior British officer has written a scathing critique of the U.S. Army and its performance in Iraq, accusing it of cultural ignorance, moralistic self-righteousness, unproductive micromanagement and unwarranted optimism there. His publisher: the U.S. Army.[/quote][/quote]HG -
I have been waiting for someone to post a thread about this essay. Perhaps you might do so.
My views re:it might surprise you.

Here is a link to the magazine in which t was featured:
usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/ … /index.asp

And here is a link to a pdf of the article itself:
usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/CAC/ … aylwin.pdf

As always, I do hope people actually read the piece before commenting on its aim and content.