What’s sad is that the government (other than a meek effort by Taipei city) is not doing anything about, they’re not trying to educate the populace or enforce laws that should be enforced. Simple little things can make a lot of difference. If you spit on the street in Shanghai (and I believe Beijing now too), you’re gonna get your ass ticketed. It should be the same way here. Cops should spend less time filling out the little forms in the metal boxes to show that they are “working” and actually doing something about people on scooters practically running down pedestrians on the sidewalks. It’s a two-fold problem: lack of education and lack of enforcement … added to that, the government doesn’t think there is a problem. Before a problem can be solved, there has to be a realization that there is a problem.
One thing that really gets my goat is that whenever I see Taiwanese use the bathroom, they just run water over their hands instead of giving them a good washing with soap. You’d think that after the SARS fiasco they would have learned. Or the problem they have with hepatitis here, yet standards of hygiene in restaurants are still so low. These are real and serious problems, and do not belong in a “developed” country like Taiwan. Rural China, Cambodia, or Africa … but not Taiwan. There’s no excuse.
My wife is Taiwanese. She is the most loyal, considerate person I have ever met. She can be a fiesty little thing at times too and I am guessing that if she was at a gathering where Taiwanese people were making all kinds of malicious generalizations about Canadians and focusing only on the negatives, she would speak up. I think owe her the same consideration.
Taiwanese people have employed me and allowed me tremendous freedom with regard to how I do my job. I recieve good medical care in this country. And there are dozens of people here with whom I exchange pleasantries on a daily basis. My question for you is this: Considering all of these things, what kind of a phony prick would I be if I came here and did nothing but complain about Taiwanese people? In fact what kind of spineless turd would I be if I didn’t come here and offer up a bit of defense on their behalf?
Sure there is sometimes a certain briskness to street level behaviour here but I would be hard pressed to say which culture I prefer, my own or this one.
[quote=“bob”]… what kind of spineless turd would I be if I didn’t come here and offer up a bit of defense on their behalf?
Sure there is sometimes a certain briskness to street level behaviour here but I would be hard pressed to say which culture I prefer, my own or this one.[/quote]
I think most of us are here because we like it here. Taiwan is my home now, whether or not they’ll ever allow me citizenship. My research and publications on Chinese literature and culture reflect my love for this part of the world. And I think few of us would find no faults with our own cultures or societies. I readily admit that my own country, the US, has many problems, and is truly in the midst of a cultural war. However, since Taiwan is “home” for many of us, and many of us pay taxes and give back to society, we have every right to “complain” about certain things. I would like to think it is because we like where we are and want to see Taiwan move forward and be able to keep pace with the rest of the world. Unfortunately, too many Taiwanese aren’t concerned about progress. If we don’t try to push the envelope or at least raise the issues, then who will?
I’m all for free expression and people making suggestions about how to improve things. I just don’t happen to believe that we are necessarily in a position to civilize anyone, and am sure that many foriegners here are in fact “civilized” by their exposure to this culture.
Precisely. The fines on the mainland are not so steep and they are really only enforced in a few areas. In HK, on the other hand, the fine for spitting or littering of any sort is HK$1,500 per item. The cops and hygiene officers enforce it pretty strictly. One officer went so far as to draw his revolver when a litterer got violent after being ticketed. The fine used to be $600, but that just didn’t seem to deter people enough. After they raised it to $1,500, I have noticed a difference. Before they implemented the fines, they ran TV adverts to warn people. No big brother style propaganda. Just some simple adverts saying basically that if you litter or spit in a public place, then you, motherfucker, are going to get a stiff fine. The campaign is so effective that when kids see other kids drop things, even if by accident, they shout “$1,500, $1,500!”
Now all they need to do is start enforcing the HK$2,000 fixed penalty for eating and drinking on the KCR and MTR. It pisses me off to see people eating on the train right below a big sign that clearly says that they aren’t supposed to do so. Apparently the cops don’t enforce those fines since they are part of MTR and KCR by-laws instead of being actual laws.
Beyond informing people that they will be fined heavily for bad behaviour, ad campaigns are a waste of tax dollars. It would be better to use the money to hire more ticket writers. The only way the government can induce people to park properly, turn their TV down and practice decent hygiene in public is to threaten large fines for this kind of behaviour and then follow through on hitting offenders with those fines. Frankly, I don’t think such a system would work in Taiwan. The cops just can’t be bothered with doing their jobs.
I can’t believe anyone would be civilized by being exposed to Taiwan, as Bob says. It seems to make people ruder. My Japanese classmates and I were surprised to discover that our parents have exactly the same reaction when we go home: they are shocked by how rude we have become. My mom just laughs about it now, because she knows I revert back to my pre-Asian level of politeness in a week or two, but the first time I came back she was horrified when she saw me pushing ahead in a line, or brushing by people without apologizing, etc.
bob, you seem to have missed the gist of what we’re getting at here… nobody is denying that there is an extremely small minority of Taiwanese folks who are civil, cultured, well educated, well mannered and polite… folks like your wife, and for that matter my wife too… more often than not this is due to their exposure to foreign countries and their cultures that value the importance of not behaving like selfish, inbred, unwashed cretins… this “civilized” minority are the reason why places like Taipei feel like a different country compared to the rest of uncouth heathen inhabited Taiwan… the minority of socially upstanding individuals… like your missus, i’m sure… are present in sufficient numbers to act as a kind of counter balance to the seething masses of ignorant, arrogant, bigoted half wits, and in some small “keep up with the Jones’s” type effect , encourage the great unwashed to take steps, albeit often misguided steps, in the right direction…
the “civilized taiwanese” who make up this minority are undoubtedly, to completely bastardize a metaphor, pearls amongst the swine… the thing is bob, as nice as the pearls are, the rest are still swine… what we are discussing here is what can be done, if anything to educate the swine… but as far people being civilized by their exposure to Taiwan, well no offense, but that’s a load of pig sh*t…
Yes, we are agents of change, change agents. We will change Japan, we will change Taiwan, we will change China, we will change the world. Everywhere we go, we are agents of change, pushing the envelope, raising issues, transforming backward cultures into progressive little engines of civilization. Thailand, too, we are agents of change in Thailand, too. My friends all over Asia say this.
And not one thing has changed ever. And never will.
[quote=“lane119”]
And not one thing has changed ever. And never will.[/quote]
Ah, bullshit. They don’t practice footbinding anymore. Japanese don’t rampage all over Asia raping “comfort women”. Widows aren’t buried alive with their husbands in India…well, at least not nearly as was common.
Cultural relativism is often just another word for moral vacuousness. It hasn’t been fashionable since 1914 to believe in human progress and the civilizing force, but I do.
The rule of law is a concept that is beginning to be taken seriously. It was only last year that probable cause was worked into the legal lexicon following a series of random searches of motels. By forcing Taiwan’s police to abide by probable cause, the cops started enforcing the little laws that had been ignored in favor of random curb-side policing.
My answer for you is this: the Taiwanese themselves have voted on that one, and it is to be overseas. More than a million are in exile all over the world. All of the complaints I’ve seen in this thread are those made by the Taiwanese themselves – there are plenty of decent Taiwanese who are appalled by things…but even the decent ones are still caught up in those same patterns.
As for prefering “cultures” you don’t live in a “culture” but in a hothouse of deference that treats foreigners very well. You live in an artificial reality created for foreigners. Of course it is nice!
It is hard to believe that the participants to this conversation are living in the same place. Do you not, on a daily baisis, see the warmth and humor of these people? The consideartion and tact that they frequently show? Yes, you see a lot of snotty behaviour too but then you see an awful lot of people too no? I think what I am looking at with some of you guys to be honest is just a lot of bad decision making. You are deciding to focus on the negative and that will ultimately have a deleterious effect on your state of mind.
My answer for you is this: the Taiwanese themselves have voted on that one, and it is to be overseas. More than a million are in exile all over the world. All of the complaints I’ve seen in this thread are those made by the Taiwanese themselves – there are plenty of decent Taiwanese who are appalled by things…but even the decent ones are still caught up in those same patterns.
As for prefering “cultures” you don’t live in a “culture” but in a hothouse of deference that treats foreigners very well. You live in an artificial reality created for foreigners. Of course it is nice!
Vorkosigan[/quote]
I agree with what you say about Taiwanese likely agreeing with much of what is being discussed here. I believe I wrote something similar in a related thread elsewhere. Most things we complain about are the same things Taiwanese complain about themselves.
However, concerning the “hothouse” etc., I believe we absolutely do live in this culture. If the term “living in it” is unacceptable to you, how about “in close participation” with it? It is true that a lot is done to accomodate foreigners here, but I would argue that it isn’t more than countries accepting immigrants the world around would do. But, then, many countries go a step farther and make permanent residence and citizenship a realistic option. I also note, that in your informing us of our bubble boy existence, you are at the same time implying that you are not in our bubble. How else would you have the perspective to inform us about our supposedly sheltered lives? How is it that all of us are living in a “hothouse” and you are not?
This partly depends on how well you can understand Chinese and Taiwanese. Quite often, it will seem as if people are ignoring you, when actually they are discussing you, very rudely, in Chinese. They often seem polite only if you can’t understand what they are saying.
Frankly, I am sick of people saying I look like an ape; in Taipei, I often come across people I think look like rat-faced midgets, or young women dressed like crack whores, but I wouldn’t be rude enough to say so right in front of them in English.