But fair and important points there, Poagao. You’d have to admit.
HG
The contention was that the KMT never fought for Taiwan or did anything towards the democratization of Taiwan. I pointed out that they did. But apparently it has become so politically incorrect in here to say anything at all bad about the DPP or anything remotely good about the KMT that even Chen dragging his political opponent’s deceased father’s grave into the political debate is seen as just hunky dory fine and met with a wall of anti-KMT rhetoric. It’s gotten to the point that even saying something bad about the economy is met with accusations of criticizing the DPP and questions like “Why don’t you love Taiwan?” It all sounds just like the response to people in the US who criticize the war in Iraq or the treatment of veterans being asked “Why do you hate America so much?”
I thought that came out in some interview with Lien’s wife around the time of the election?
HG[/quote]
Nope, it was some letters from Lian Zhan’s daughter which somehow ended up in the possission of a newspaper.
The daughter was complaining about the violence at home.
Those rumors have been around for a long time. if Lian Zhan wanted to, he could sue (not that it’s uncommon for pols to sue for trifles here), however he has never done so.
I don’t see how you get there. Had there been no KMT, the US would have probably sent an occupying force to Taiwan as it did in Okinawa. Taiwan might have been turned over to Japan or given its independence. Remember that until 1972, the State Department’s position was that the status of Taiwan was undecided.
Personally, I don’t think it’s fine, but it has a context and that history isn’t lost on me. That’s all.
As much as I dislike Ma, I think he’ll make a reasonable President perhaps even a great one, not because of anything in particular about him but because everybody wants him to succeed, America, China, Japan, most of Taiwan, business, you name it. And like I mentioned earlier he’ll have a lot of political cache in the bank.
Yes, that pretty much is the contention. When did the KMT ever “fight for Taiwan”? The only fighting the KMT ever did was in the late 1940s and 1950s as part of its rearguard action to retreat to Taiwan. And then the Battle of Kinmen was to ensure that the Nationalists could retain their forward bases in Kinmen and Matsu, which as is now clear, were maintained because that was where the invasion of the mainland would be launched. In both cases, the KMT was defending the Nationalist Army, not Taiwan. Taiwan’s defense was secured by the US Seventh Fleet and the substantial US military presence in Taiwan, not the KMT.
As for democratization, the KMT played at best a passive role. Ma Ying-jeou’s positions through the years are highly illustrative. In the 1980s, Ma opposed the lifting of martial law, in the 1990s, he opposed the repeal of Article 100 of the Criminal Code (the infamous sedition clause), he opposed direct presidential elections, and he opposed referendums.
The KMT fought for the Republic of China, which encompassed Taiwan in their and most other people’s viewpoints. The PLA wouldn’t have just stopped at Kinmen and not invaded Taiwan, so I don’t see how the KMT-led ROC forces didn’t fight for Taiwan.
So you admit the KMT did play a role in democratization. That’s all I was saying.
They fought for their own survival, which happened to centre on Taiwan because there was simply no where else. Of course, when they got here, they fought to make Taiwan a part of China.
HG
Whatever floats yer boat. Armies tend to fight for their own survival in wars. And Taiwan was part of China (nutcase SFTP/America 51st Club allegations notwithstanding).
But I forget, this is Forumosa, so I’ll stop with teh Crazy Talk.
Anyway, this thread was an interesting experiment. I wondered if even this incident could bring out the anti-KMT rhetoric, and, disappointingly, it did. Do you love Taiwan? Do you? DO YOU??? meh.
Living in the past aren’t we, and full of denial… 
If there were no KMT, the USA would have lost the Pacific theater, since all of China would have been under Japanese rule, with all the resources and manpower under their complete control, USA would have lost the war of attrition, since well as you can see the PRC is the master of manufacturing…
But that’s too much speculation. When will TI nutters figure out that they reside in ROC and that democracy in Taiwan is a multi-party process. TI has lost its appeal in Taiwan among those of that are tired of this “if you’re don’t support the DPP, you’re not Taiwanese” nonsense.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]They fought for their own survival, which happened to centre on Taiwan because there was simply no where else. Of course, when they got here, they fought to make Taiwan a part of China.
HG[/quote]
There was Hainandao…but history of course shows that the KMT choose another island…
And this justify snooping around a political opponents father’s grave to take political pot shots. I really hope the children of some of the posters who support TI get similar treatment from future TI nutters going to their parent’s graves to justify how loyal to Taiwan they are…
“WTF is this quote from [Earnest Hemmingway, James Joyce, etc.] doing on their grave…their children don’t love Taiwan.”
The one who started the political discussion was Ma’s dad with a political message on his urn… in a place like Taiwan that is a stone waiting to be thrown at you… Then Ma goes on saying that Taiwan is homeland, even for pops, when, at his own urn, he states that China is homeland…
What do you expect… everything you say around here can be and will be used against you in the court of media…
They are quite welcome to make the trip to Australia to visit my parents graves AC. 
This belief that the DPP and TI supporters have a monopoly on love for Taiwan is ridiculous.
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”][quote=“almas john”]Oh, interesting to see some dissent in the marsupial camp. Wombat turned on the koala - fur flying this way and that.
Chen’s comments about Ma’s old man really are below the belt.
God, when I think back to how happy I was on election night in 2000 (in fact I was so happy I drank a lot). Now, I would be happy to see Ma as the president.[/quote]
Ditto . . . Erh, I mean, fuck you! Choker!
You kow the CEO of the company I work for is a kiwi. Caught in the lift together the other day after the, erhm, big choke, I decided to have a laugh. I said. “John,” which is not his name, “you know that lever in a car that increases the idle, or is it the fuel mix when you are having trouble starting a car, what’s that called?”
He just stared hard and told me to “fuck off.” I couldn’t help myself, I said “is that with the choke on or off?”
There goes the bonus!
HG[/quote]
You can buy him this gift for the next world cup lol
God I HATE that man!!!
Nobody has ever said that many KMT members don’t love Taiwan.
Ac you always want to play the so called racism of this or that and the schism Chen has supposedly created.
Go out onto the streets here and ask people who they are. Ask any child if they are Chinese and they reply I’m Taiwanese.
You on the other hand are an American who dreams of being something else.
When my wife was pregnant 17 years ago I had a shirt with the words Made In Taiwan with an arrow pointing down to her pregnant belly. Sure did draw some amused looks but the message was clear.
What the KMT or DPP has done in the past is irrelevant. All you can do is look back in time but the people of this country are looking to the future.
If the PRC were to say let Taiwan hold a referendum on independence without threat of war what do you think the result would be? Independence would win out.
It seems you are very afraid that the people who live on this island mark themselves as being Taiwanese. You don’t hear about Singaporean Chinese wanting to be a part of China do you? Not the ethnic Chinese in Malaysia or Indonesia?
Whatever happens with the future elections you should not be so keen so bet that the DPP might not take the spoils again.
As Ma has famoulsy said in his BBC Hardtalk interview, it will be the leaders of the country who sell out Taiwan to the PRC. Not something that went unheeded amongst many voters here. You might expect some of that interview to be heavily replayed for the masses here during the election campaign. Ma was squirming like a stuck pig and then very condesendingly tells the host
" You just dont understand Chinese culture" when he couldn’t answer the questions asked.
If Ma faces any questionsing like that from the local press then we will see how he stands up to scrutiny.
Electionaring these days even in the US is all about the muck you can rake up.
It’s not what you know or who you know, it’s what you know about who you know!!!
As an hanji-o-ah Taiwanese, we take great displeasure from slights on from either side to claim superiority on the other without serious justification.
It is customary to list hometown on Chinese grave sites. Does that mean every progeny of individuals who list hometowns outside of Taiwan province are less authentic?
We are colloquially referred to as MIT (Made in Taiwan). There are the tattoo on the rump and the scars on the shoulder during delivery to designated us as such.
The retaining of ROC and PRC as independent political entities would win out. Not Taiwan Independence. You are confusing the seperation of ROC and PRC with the Hoklo Nationalism movement known as Taiwan Independence.
And once again you are avoiding the Chinese issue that CSB is bringing up, which is fidelity. We are who are father’s are and dictated as such. CSB comment doesn’t resonate in Western society because of individualism of we are who we make ourselves to be.
Which is the issue I bring up to every father on this site whose child is an ROC citizen now. Is your child more of less Taiwanese because of who you are. This is what CSB has implied to society as a whole, MYJ is foreign and will always be foreign because his father was foreign.
Or more sinister, because your political outlook is different than mine (a full fledge Hoklo) you and your progeny are not entitled to a political voice, even when you are ROC citizens.
Where is sandman, how many English mistakes do you get?
[quote]Quote:
You on the other hand are an American who dreams of being something else.
As an hanji-o-ah Taiwanese, we take great displeasure from slights on from either side to claim superiority on the other without serious justification.
It is customary to list hometown on Chinese grave sites. Does that mean every progeny of individuals who list hometowns outside of Taiwan province are less authentic?
Quote:
When my wife was pregnant 17 years ago I had a shirt with the words Made In Taiwan with an arrow pointing down to her pregnant belly. Sure did draw some amused looks but the message was clear.
We are colloquially referred to as MIT (Made in Taiwan). There are the tattoo on the rump and the scars on the shoulder during delivery to designated us as such.
Quote:
If the PRC were to say let Taiwan hold a referendum on independence without threat of war what do you think the result would be? Independence would win out.
The retaining of ROC and PRC as independent political entities would win out. Not Taiwan Independence. You are confusing the seperation of ROC and PRC with the Hoklo Nationalism movement known as Taiwan Independence.
And once again you are avoiding the Chinese issue that CSB is bringing up, which is fidelity. We are who are father’s are and dictated as such. CSB comment doesn’t resonate in Western society because of individualism of we are who we make ourselves to be.
Which is the issue I bring up to every father on this site whose child is an ROC citizen now. Is your child more of less Taiwanese because of who you are. This is what CSB has implied to society as a whole, MYJ is foreign and will always be foreign because his father was foreign.
Or more sinister, because your political outlook is different than mine (a full fledge Hoklo) you and your progeny are not entitled to a political voice, even when you are ROC citizens.
[/quote]
What is a hand job " hanji-o-ah"
I’m gusesing a “hand job” taiwanese is someone whose parents
escaped the communist onslaught by going to an American gifted
enclave to oppose the communists.
Unfortunately “5000 years of culture” wouldn’t allow the “Republic”
but only more Fascism.
Then forty years more fascism - the"White Terror".
What really surprises me is that you “hand job” Taiwanese don’t read the
newspapers and see how things are in the middle kingdom.
Frankly my worst fear is that when Mao’s revolution of the proletariat rises again
the fascist dictators will try to rally the troops to the trump card play of “national pride”
restore the “…” (insert your aproppriatism here).
I gave one to you sandman!