OK now. The situation in Taichung is getting worse and worse. The Taichung government has shut down over 300 businesses because they are places were people like to hang out and drink. It is getting ridiculous. Last night I was in the last place in town that is remaining open and it got raided by the police. It was the first time I had ever been there and my friend told me that the raids are a regular occurance. I doubt that place will be open next week.
It’s time to do something. I think we need more than just a little protest march. I think we in Taichung need to pass around a collection plate and organize a group of lawyers to help the businesses see how they can remain open. I cannot imagine that the police were right in closing down 300 businesses in every single case.
Complaining that we have no place to go dance and drink beer won’t do it. We will look like a bunch of people who are only concerned about partying that way. Instead we need to focus on how this hurts Taichung’s image and how it hurts the city economically. People will not want to come here, because there is nothing to do. Those people will not spend money from outside here. We need to show the government that 300 landlords are not making money, because they are not collecting rent. Thousands of people are out of work now and they are not able to pay taxes on incomes they are not earning. We need to show the government how doing this is hurting the city. We need to get organized. :soapbox: :braveheart:
Are you sure this statement is accurate? You honestly believe there are a bunch of government officials going around shutting places down purely because they are popular places for people to go to drink alcohol. If there is evidence that the government is against people having fun and getting drunk then I think it you would have an international news story on your hand (:
Also where does the 300 number come from?
Are you sure this statement is accurate? You honestly believe there are a bunch of government officials going around shutting places down purely because they are popular places for people to go to drink alcohol. If there is evidence that the government is against people having fun and getting drunk then I think it you would have an international news story on your hand (:
Also where does the 300 number come from?[/quote]
Have you been to Taichung recently?
The number has come from the groups who have banded together to protest in front of the government. I
It is not about they are against people having fun and getting drunk. It is about the fire that happened at one of the bars and that that place had passed 20 inspections prior to that due to corruption. Mayor Hu got his ass in a sling over it and now he is trying to make sure it doesn’t happen again. He would rather all places just be closed down than corruption be exposed.
300 sounds too high. Not realistic. Best would be for these businesses to operate within the law and there should be no problems for them. Fire safety and proper business licensing is the problem, my guess is. If the govt is cracking down on business that are operating illegally, I think this is a good thing. There are too many instances where the law isn’t enforced in Taiwan. Nice to see advancement even if it means some people are losing their favorite watering holes, etc, etc.
Why do you say its related to the Commies?
Aren’t they infringing on people’s freedoms here? It’s like they are saying people’s businesses are not their own, but the state’s and the state can open and close them as they see fit. The state are behaving like bunch of fascists here.
Aren’t they infringing on people’s freedoms here? It’s like they are saying people’s businesses are not their own, but the state’s and the state can open and close them as they see fit. The state are behaving like bunch of fascists here.[/quote]
It just seems like a term to not throw around loosely when you’re in Taiwan, considering there are actual Commie spies in the government.
Seems like it might do a disservice to your cause to go chanting “Communists!” through the streets. The people might get excited, but it might make the government disregard you.
Aren’t they infringing on people’s freedoms here? It’s like they are saying people’s businesses are not their own, but the state’s and the state can open and close them as they see fit. The state are behaving like bunch of fascists here.[/quote]
It just seems like a term to not throw around loosely when you’re in Taiwan, considering there are actual Commie spies in the government.
Seems like it might do a disservice to your cause to go chanting “Communists!” through the streets. The people might get excited, but it might make the government disregard you.[/quote]
Maybe you have some good points. But if Taiwan wants to be seen as a democratic alternative to China, it needs to think about what is image the stuff going on in Taichung now gives people.
Aren’t they infringing on people’s freedoms here? It’s like they are saying people’s businesses are not their own, but the state’s and the state can open and close them as they see fit. The state are behaving like bunch of fascists here.[/quote]
It just seems like a term to not throw around loosely when you’re in Taiwan, considering there are actual Commie spies in the government.
Seems like it might do a disservice to your cause to go chanting “Communists!” through the streets. The people might get excited, but it might make the government disregard you.[/quote]
Maybe you have some good points. But if Taiwan wants to be seen as a democratic alternative to China, it needs to think about what is image the stuff going on in Taichung now gives people.[/quote]
I agree. Shutting down businesses are completely counter to a free society and market.
Perhaps looking at how a democratic nation in the West would deal with this issue might be helpful.
Off the top of my head, I think it would go something like 1) Gather signatures on a petition saying the closing need to stop and must be investigated (ie demands from the people), 2) Bring the petition with the signatures to the City Hall demanding an investigation (or whatever it is in Taiwan) (ie Petitioning the government). 3) Collect the money for the lawyers and the greivances (stories, evidence) from the people involved (as you’ve already made a point of doing), 4) Be heard in a court of law. And most importantly, 5) Inform the media throughout the whole process and 6) Broadcast the hearings and judgements.
You shouldn’t have an issue getting any of these things done if Taiwan is as free a nation as it would like the world to believe.
Which bar?
Why were the “businesses” shut down?
Were they operating with the required licenses?
Were they in compliance with required health & safety codes?
Were they ignoring previously issued warning regarding license and code compliance?
I’m not even going to mention such things as hong bao and tax issues…but that may be an area to consider also.
Before ranting about being inconvenienced it might be worth it to consider whether these “businesses” were actually following the rules required for safe and legal operation.
I am a proud and loud Capitalist and fully support a businesses ‘right to make a profit’…however, there are certain rules to follow and a frame-work to operate inside that affords certain “protective measures” against having the jackboots come in and shut ones doors.
Minimal compliance with the “Rules of Order” help with this. I tend to think its a temporary shake-down for mo’ money on someones part.
Which bar?[/quote]
Could be this: chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/loca … htclub.htm
Which bar?[/quote]
Could be this: chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/loca … htclub.htm[/quote]
Umm, doubtful. That news piece is from March, well before the protest mentioned in the OP.
The question still remains: Which bar is now closed?
Haha. This thread is turning into a bad case of deja vu.
TC, to answer your questions:
Yes, this all started b/c bars had compliance issues. Then the mayor decided to take things a step further and sent the police to bars to harass business owners and customers. The inspections were nothing much more than a walk-through. Police would stand outside (and inside) bars…and just stand there. It’s not too much fun drinking when there’s a cop outside.
A number of bars are still open. (No, WLL, Taichung’s “last bar” did not close it’s doors. I’m still curious as to which one closed.) However, bars here now close or stop serving mixed drinks at 10. (Beer is still poured.) There’s some new rule about how bar owners can’t display liquor bottles (esp. not whisky) in the bar.
As for specifics on compliance issues, taxes, bribes, I’m not sure. I’m only working off the answers given to me by bar/restauro owners and well-informed friends.
Still, it’s a sad state of affairs. The places that used to be hopping are now dead. I went out with a friend on Friday and the few places we stopped in were empty sans one or two patrons. Funny, though, how on my way home I noticed LatTea and Royal House were absolutely packed.
ichbinjenny -
Thanks.
A couple of years ago I had an interesting chat with an Architectural professor at a local University and a working architect. The subject of building codes came up.
Compliance when submitting drawings, construction inspections, “quality” of materials, etc.
They were both “Western” trained and very up-to-date in their knowledge, as well as fully aware of the reality of Taiwan life & law in these matters.
One stated, and the other confirmed, what I found to be a very amazing item - There are only about 7 actual inspectors - building code compliance inspectors - in all of Taiwan. And they all are in Taipei.
It seems that outside of Taipei this job - for both new construction as well as code compliance of existing structures - this job is farmed out to the local Police Department. The local PD then assigns whoever is available to go out and …“Have look around” (get the red envelope).
They told me this with smiles of simple acceptance and shrugs of inevitability - “Whadda ya gonna do?”…for one it complicated trying to instruct students who sincerely wanted to do a good job…for the other it made their task incredibly less complicated.
Life on the island…The Fun Never Stops.
I am not convinced that what you are saying is the full picture. We need more facts. Someone could just as easily argue (and have done above) places are simply being shut down for refusing to comply with taiwanese law such as fire regulations. How do you know the owners are simply trying to avoid having to properly construct and maintain safe buildings?
After the first few rounds of shut downs, media attention, and government announcing through the media they would crack down on establishments that do not obey building regulations, it would be fairly easy to argue that the businesses are being shut down having had fair warning they need to improve safety.
Perhaps the business owners main fault is assuming that the government wouldn’t follow through with what they said they were going to do? I suspect the subject of your post should really be:
“Taichung businesses shut down due to refusal to comply with safety standards that put peoples lives at risk”
Regarding the question of if it is a shake down for more money on behalf of corrupt officials. At the end of the day if businesses were complying with local law they would not be in this position in the first place. I am inclined to be more optimistic and believe the true situation is that word has come down from on high that bribery regarding health and safety inspections would no longer be allowed.
I’d bet a pack of sun cookies that it is a collusion to get that valuable land into developers’ hands. If it was 10, maybe 20 places, you’d understand. But 300 sounds like sending the hounds after the rabbits so that they will fall off the cliff and you won’t have to fire a shot to enjoy the meat.
Although I am sure it would be easy to find and then shut down 300 places due to breach of some building code, I don’t think anyone believes tht Taichung at one point has ever had 300 night clubs.
[quote=“pqkdzrwt”]
Although I am sure it would be easy to find and then shut down 300 places due to breach of some building code, I don’t think anyone believes tht Taichung at one point has ever had 300 night clubs.[/quote]
Lotta stated “over 300 businesses” where “people like to hang out and drink”. Since Taiwan does not have an open bottle law, drinking can be done anywhere on the streets, right? Meaning that places Lotta is talking about do NOT by default mean “300 nightclubs”.
Lotta could be talking about a freaking fruit stand in a night market where “people like to hang out”. This still counts as a business where someone has paid a rent and perhaps taken a license. (I don’t know how its done in Taiwan, so that’s a guess.)
Obviously, I’ve never been to Taichung so I can’t comment on whether 300 is an over-exaggeration.
But very obviously, Lotta did not mean exclusively “nightclubs”.
TC has some good questions. I’m interested in the answers.
Oh, I agree definetively that most establishments would have enough code violations to shut it down -mostly, because in a corrupt system, those “flaws” guarantee a reason for a shakedown. That is why if there is such a case of enforcement and massive closure, as alleged, people would be distrustful, and not think that such zeal would have only the public safety in mind. As to the number of establishments, I am sure that it is taking into account the whole city, not just the blocks of entertainment areas downtown. Plus, lost of cop activity is normal before elections.