Compassion for Animals, or People?

WTF? Living in Taiwan automatically makes me filled with values from Buddhism/Taoism?
When did you become the expert on my life, values, and how I grew up?

Ah, yes, we must impose our western imperialistic values on these people. Like they don’t know right from wrong already. [/quote]
So you’re saying we shouldn’t be educating children in the world to treat animals and others with kindness? That treating others with kindness is “western” and “imperialistic”?

Of course there’s something really fucked up about this man, so he takes it out on animals. Does that make it acceptable? He’s fucked up and angry inside so he kills little animals by torturing them to death, and now I should “feel his pain”?

So if today it were a serial killer of children instead of kittens, how would you suggest we react? With peace and love and understanding in our hearts for how this man acted, because “He has deep seated anger issues that need to be resolved.”?

He tortured the kittens because he didn’t realise there would be consequences. He thought he would get away with it. He thought it was fun. When people left messages online asking him to stop, he replied by saying he was going to slowly torture the four remaining kittens he had, break their bones, then leave their dead bodies one by one in cardboard boxes by a bus stop in Neihu.

Why don’t people kill other people freely? Because there are consequences. And they are enforced. If you kill someone, you do time in jail. You’re forever known as a murderer. It’s on your permanent record, and all your future employers see it. That’s the way it is in Taiwan anyway.

Some sick fucks, like him, kill cats or dogs in cruel ways because they don’t think there will be any consequences. He can be seen on TV saying “oh, maybe my ways of disciplining cats deviate from the norm” with a little smile on his face.

Give me a break. He went to school. He didn’t grow up in the bush with no values or morals to guide him. Ask anyone who’s been to even elementary school whether it’s right or wrong to torture an animal to death for fun. He was not brought up outside of society. He knows that it’s wrong to torture animals to death and kill people.

When people see him losing face on TV, they WILL think twice if they want to do so afterwards. This WILL alter the mentality in Taiwan. Seeing that abusing animals is not acceptable by society and has repercussions will lessen possibility of it happening.

What’s your point? Even in western countries, you “lose face” when you are made an example of. Someone doesn’t gain respect when everyone finds out he’s a child molester, does he? Being outed as a sick fuck has serious repercussions anywhere.

So, since it’s wrong for us to feel like he is getting what he rightly deserves by us saying what he did is absolutely worng and, please tell us what you would do if:

Someone took Chocky away from you. Tied his four paws together tightly with rope so he had no chance of escaping from his fate of being brutally tortured to death. Forced his mouth open to pour shampoo down his throat until he chokes and gags while coughing up bubbles. Then dunking his face repeatedly into a basin of water to watch him drown. But not actually letting him drown, because that would end his suffering and ruin the fun. Placing metal clips onto his ears so he struggles and cries but would never be able to pull them off. Then lifting him up high and throwing him forcefully against the cold hard tile floor again and again until his bones broke, and he was no longer an amusing spectacle to them. Then he’s put into a cardboard box, driven somewhere, and disposed of.

So he sits in the box, unable to do anything but cry and scream for help. But no one comes to save him, so he dies alone, in pain.

Tell me. What exactly would you do to this person, if this person did this to your dog?

Then, what exactly would you do to this person, if this person did this to a family member of yours?

Should he be punished? If so, how?

How should people in the society feel towards this murderer?

Namahottie, i think it is totally rediculous to say that teaching children not to do to other as what you wouldn’t want done to your self is a westen way. It is also taught in Buddhism. I believe strongly that i am doing the right thing by teaching my students right from wrong, and i do believe that in most cultures, KILLING AN INOCCENT LIVING BEING IS WRONG!

If nearly 13 years isn’t very long then, yes i haven’t lived in Taiwan for very long.
I have many Chinese friends (actually most of my freinds), and they are all sickened by this man and hope he gets the appropriate punishment.

You may think i am overreacting, however i feel you are underreacting to the acts that this man has committed.

I myself have 5 pets and it enrages me to hear of news like this anywhere in the world.

Fact: It is wrong to kill an innocent living being for no reason what so ever.

Fact: In this society, wrong doings are punished.

Problem: What is the correct punishment for this inhuman act?

I feel sorry for anyone who would befreind a person such as this man, because in my eyes, his next step up will be humans.

All those people you quoted have committed wrongs, but does it make it right to let another man go unpunished because they went unpunished?

Some people pick arguments just for the argument. It is a shame.

[quote=“UKbikerchic”]
I feel sorry for anyone who would befreind a person such as this man, because in my eyes, his next step up will be humans.[/quote]

i remember reading an article that said serial killers studied by sociologists all seem to have started off killing insects, then cats and dogs as a child. ie a growing indifference to taking life. fwiw.

[quote=“Jack Burton”][quote=“UKbikerchic”]
I feel sorry for anyone who would befreind a person such as this man, because in my eyes, his next step up will be humans.[/quote]

i remember reading an article that said serial killers studied by sociologists all seem to have started off killing insects, then cats and dogs as a child. ie a growing indifference to taking life. fwiw.[/quote]

My wife and I were discussing the same thing yesterday. Soon he will get bored with kittens and move on to something bigger. It’s only a matter of time with someone who is obviously demonstrating tendancies towards psychopathy.

There are a couple of types of people I can think of that can’t be redeemed. Charles Manson types, people who are beyond rehabilitation via medication and therapy. But I think a majority of people can be rehabilitated. I’m not always in favor of jailing someone. Jails, at least in America, a filled to the max with people being ‘rehabilitated’. When actually they are living in an abusive environment that breeds more anger and more violence. With some crimes, I think that justice system needs to look at alternative ways of rehabilitating people. IMO we’ve in a world full of retaliation and the cycle is getting bigger and bigger with no solution.

I can fathom what he did. I suspect the man was frustrated, angry, filled with rage. The only way he knew how to process that rage was to take it out on something that he could dominate and hurt like he had been himself. It was a release for his rage, as sick as it sounds. But that’s the mentality of some people who have been exposed to violence. They look for means to express anger because they don’t know of healthy ways to do it.

It is assumed that because he was educated, he should have known better ways. But that’s not the case. There are many people who are educated who do devious things and don’t feel culpable. Especially in a society such as this one, where men have carte blanc(sp?) and don’t have to be accountable for their actions. Having a degree isn’t proof of one’s emotional and ethical capacities. It just says they did the course work, paid their tuition fees, and completed the requirements to get that glorified receipt.

[quote=“Stray Dog”]Nama, I admire your stance, and it probably is the correct one to take.

However, people here are demonstrating their frustration at the lack of a suitable punishment for this whacko by wishing upon him the kind of acts he commited against defenceless kittens - but none of them are actually going and doing anything to him.

The point is, let them rant; let them fantasize about what torturous punishment would be good enough for the scumbag; let them get it all out in print … because that’s how you’ll prevent it happening in real life. Perhaps if this sick piece of shit found some similar avenue for airing his frustrations, we wouldn’t be faced with pictures of kittens being force fed shampoo, having their innards squeezed out of them, having all their bones broken from being thrown against a wall, and whatever else the tosser did to them.

Again, I applaud your humanity, but let people rant. I can’t tell you what I imagine doing to this prick.[/quote]

So, I should allow them to rant, but not have the right to add my opinion? I do understand what message you are saying to me. :slight_smile: And could just stay out of it. But for some reason, I feel compelled to say something about it. Generally I would keep my mouth shut, but this time, I’m willing to go to bat on this issue.

[quote]WTF? Living in Taiwan automatically makes me filled with values from Buddhism/Taoism?
When did you become the expert on my life, values, and how I grew up?[/quote] You’re right, my bad to assume such a thing.

Ah, yes, we must impose our western imperialistic values on these people. Like they don’t know right from wrong already. [/quote]

[quote]So you’re saying we shouldn’t be educating children in the world to treat animals and others with kindness? That treating others with kindness is “western” and “imperialistic”?[/quote] Well, if we’re talking about teaching others about treating all forms of life with kindness, it would have also extend to a sick person such as the tourturer. IMO it waste of time to teach kindness when one is being selective about who is to have it extended to them and who isn’t. That’s judgement which nulifies the whole process.

[quote]Of course there’s something really fucked up about this man, so he takes it out on animals. Does that make it acceptable? He’s fucked up and angry inside so he kills little animals by torturing them to death, and now I should “feel his pain”?[/quote] You love to twist words don’t you. Either read my posts as they are or just let it be. I never said ‘feel his pain’. I said to be compassionate. Like you haven’t fucked up once in your life and never needed someone to see you with non-judgemental eyes.

[quote]So if today it were a serial killer of children instead of kittens, how would you suggest we react? With peace and love and understanding in our hearts for how this man acted, because “He has deep seated anger issues that need to be resolved.”?[/quote] Yes. I am outraged and was actually physically sick when I saw the pictures all tabloid sized on the Apple Daily. But I think that hunting him down and verbally attacking him or physically attacking him, or even the suggestion doesn’t really solve the problem. I know no one, at least hope no one would here would do so. But I think that those who are interested in the wellbeing of animal welfare would hopefully be using their educated minds to solve the problem, not rant on. For people who are committed to animal welfare, I see this as an opportunity for them to springboard their activism into the public eye therefore becoming agents of change. Ranting online about what he did isn’t gonna unring that bell.

[quote]He tortured the kittens because he didn’t realise there would be consequences. He thought he would get away with it. He thought it was fun. When people left messages online asking him to stop, he replied by saying he was going to slowly torture the four remaining kittens he had, break their bones, then leave their dead bodies one by one in cardboard boxes by a bus stop in Neihu.[/quote] Okay, and then when people realized that the situation was actually serious, the did something about it. I appauld their courage. They should be publicly rewarded. That would be an even stronger example to the public letting people know that this type of behaviour isn’t acceptable.

[quote]Why don’t people kill other people freely? Because there are consequences. And they are enforced. If you kill someone, you do time in jail. You’re forever known as a murderer. It’s on your permanent record, and all your future employers see it. That’s the way it is in Taiwan anyway.[/quote] Pick up Time, Newsweek, Taipei Times. Anynews paper. People kill each other freely everyday. And not everyone is caught and not everyone does jail time. Do you know about the O.J. trial?

[quote]Some sick fucks, like him, kill cats or dogs in cruel ways because they don’t think there will be any consequences. He can be seen on TV saying “oh, maybe my ways of disciplining cats deviate from the norm” with a little smile on his face.[/quote] Well, that is apart of this society and alot of others. Many people do stuff here everyday that they think there won’t be any consequences. And you know what=there usually isn’t. Luckly for the cats, and for him there was.

[quote]Give me a break. He went to school. He didn’t grow up in the bush with no values or morals to guide him. Ask anyone who’s been to even elementary school whether it’s right or wrong to torture an animal to death for fun. He was not brought up outside of society. He knows that it’s wrong to torture animals to death and kill people.[/quote] No give me a break. You aren’t taught life skills in school. I wish people would stop thinking its the academic world’s responsiblity to raise people to be good members of society. :unamused: It’s the parent’s job. Not the school’s not the teacher’s.

[quote]When people see him losing face on TV, they WILL think twice if they want to do so afterwards. This WILL alter the mentality in Taiwan. Seeing that abusing animals is not acceptable by society and has repercussions will lessen possibility of it happening.[/quote] Possibliy, but I don’t think so. Remember that 4 year old girl that was beaten to death by her father who was drunk. No child abuse laws have been created, even after the public outcry. I still see and hear kids getting beat in school and around my house.

[quote]What’s your point? Even in western countries, you “lose face” when you are made an example of. Someone doesn’t gain respect when everyone finds out he’s a child molester, does he? Being outed as a sick fuck has serious repercussions anywhere.[/quote] Apples and organes but I’ll play. Sure being outted has serious repercussions, but it doen’t unring that bell, and it sure as hell doesn’t alter the intial behaviour.

[quote]So, since it’s wrong for us to feel like he is getting what he rightly deserves by us saying what he did is absolutely worng and, please tell us what you would do if:

Someone took Chocky away from you. Tied his four paws together tightly with rope so he had no chance of escaping from his fate of being brutally tortured to death. Forced his mouth open to pour shampoo down his throat until he chokes and gags while coughing up bubbles. Then dunking his face repeatedly into a basin of water to watch him drown. But not actually letting him drown, because that would end his suffering and ruin the fun. Placing metal clips onto his ears so he struggles and cries but would never be able to pull them off. Then lifting him up high and throwing him forcefully against the cold hard tile floor again and again until his bones broke, and he was no longer an amusing spectacle to them. Then he’s put into a cardboard box, driven somewhere, and disposed of.

So he sits in the box, unable to do anything but cry and scream for help. But no one comes to save him, so he dies alone, in pain.[/quote] Ah the high aria of this drama. I would be outraged. Hurt to my heart. But once all that passed, I know that I have my values that I have to be true to. I would actually seek help for this person, as hard as it would be too. And pray for them. I’m not willing to give my power over to someone because they hurt me.

[quote]
Should he be punished? If so, how?[/quote]Jail time, a fine, congentive therapy/anger management courses, and once, if it is established that his is no longer a threat, volenteer work with animals that have been abused so he can “reflect” his actions. Hopefull that “reflection” would lead him to become a type of person that would be able educate others on animal abuse/welfare. And he wouldn’t be the first person to have gone thru this process.

*note-excuse all the spelling mistakes. Spell check is broken.
:smiley:

[quote=“UKbikerchic”]Namahottie, i think it is totally rediculous to say that teaching children not to do to other as what you wouldn’t want done to your self is a westen way. It is also taught in Buddhism. I believe strongly that i am doing the right thing by teaching my students right from wrong, and i do believe that in most cultures, KILLING AN INOCCENT LIVING BEING IS WRONG!

If nearly 13 years isn’t very long then, yes i haven’t lived in Taiwan for very long.
I have many Chinese friends (actually most of my freinds), and they are all sickened by this man and hope he gets the appropriate punishment.[/quote] Well I stand corrected about you living here. Thanks.

[quote]You may think i am overreacting, however i feel you are underreacting to the acts that this man has committed. [/quote] Okay, you’re entitled to your anger. But like you haven’t ever lost your temper and said or done something that wasn’t ways out of bounds. Yes, I am certain that you wouldn’t go to the extremes that this man did, but remember the saying “But there for the grace of God, go I.”

[quote]I feel sorry for anyone who would befreind a person such as this man, because in my eyes, his next step up will be humans.[/quote] I already said that in my first post on this subject. I’m not suggesting that someone ‘befriend’ him, althought it probably wouldn’t be a bad idea seeing as such he probably didn’t have any friends to begin with. Usually people like that, live very isolated and insulated lives due to their fear and anger toward others.

[quote]All those people you quoted have committed wrongs, but does it make it right to let another man go unpunished because they went unpunished?[/quote]Never said he should go unpunished.

[quote]
Some people pick arguments just for the argument. It is a shame.[/quote]What is it you really want to say?

I’m a compassionate man but I still squash roaches and centipedes in my house. The difference here I think is that Nama still thinks of this guy as a human being. To me he’s worse than a centipede – a centipede doesn’t KNOW its a nasty venomous creepy crawlie. So I can quite happily talk about squashing this guy. Compassion doesn’t come into it. He’s a thing, not a person.
And to liken people ranting on a forum to a torturing sociopath is something I find rather offensive.

I didn’t mean to liken them with my point and sincere aopologies if anyone was offended.

How condescending! I know perfectly well what compassion “really is all about” thanks very much. My point is that cat-killer doesn’t deserve any. At all.

Not you, you stupid halfwitted MORON! I was referring to Nama.

You liken ranting online to torturing small animals to death. That is a downright nutty opinion, IMO.

I’m no Gandhi or Buddha either, but there are many who walk in their footprints and I have great respect for them.

[quote=“Thich Nhat Hanh”]Compassion is Understanding

Do not maintain anger or hatred. Learn to penetrate and transform them when they are still seeeds in your consciousness. As soon as they arise, turn your attention to your breath in order to see and understand the nature of your anger and hatred and the nature of the persons who have caused your anger and hatred[/quote]

[quote]When we grow a lemon tree, we want it to be vigorous and beautiful. But,
if it isn’t vigorous and beautiful, we don’t blame the tree. We observe
it in order to understand why isn’t growing well. Perhaps we have not
taken good care of it. We know it is funny to blame a lemon tree, but we
do blame human beings when they are not growing well. Because our
brothers, sisters, and children are humans, we think they should behave
in certain ways. But human beings are not very different from lemon
trees. If we take good care of them, they will grow properly. Blaming
never helps. Only love and understanding can help people change. If we
take good care of people, we will be rewarded by their pleasantness. Is
this much different from the rewards we recieve from our lemon tree?[/quote]

[quote]All violence is injustice. The fire of hatred and violence cannot be extinguished by adding more hatred and violence to the fire. The only antidote to violence is compassion. And what is compassion made of? It is made of understanding. When there is no understanding, how can we feel compassion, how can we begin to relieve the great suffering that is there? So understanding is the very real foundation upon which we build our compassion. . .

There are people who want one thing only: revenge. In the Buddhist scriptures, the Buddha said that by using hatred to answer hatred, there will only be an escalation of hatred. But if we use compassion to embrace those who have harmed us, it will greatly diffuse the bomb in our hearts and in theirs. [/quote]

[quote]The method of the Buddha is to look deeply to see the source of suffering; the source of the violence. If we have violence within ourselves, any action can make that violence explode. This energy of hatred and violence can be very great and when we see that in the other person then we feel sorry for them. When we feel sorry for them, the drop of compassion is born in our hearts and we feel so much happier and so much more at peace in ourselves. That [empathy] produces the nectar of compassion within ourselves. . .

We must look deeply and honestly at our present situation. If we are able to see the sources for the suffering within ourselves and within the other person, we can begin to unravel the cycle of hatred and violence. When our house is on fire, we must first put out the fire before investigating its cause. Likewise, if we first extinguish the anger and hatred in our own heart, we will have a chance to deeply investigate the situation with clarity and insight in order to determine all the causes and conditions that have contributed to the hatred and violence we are experiencing within ourselves and within our world.[/quote]

[quote]This past summer a group of Palestinians and Israelis came to Plum Village, the practice center where I live in southern France, to learn and practice the arts of deep listening and loving speech. (Around 1,600 people come to Plum Village each summer from over a dozen countries to listen and to learn how to bring peace and understanding to their daily lives.) The group of Palestinians and Israelis participated in the daily schedule of walking meditation, sitting meditation, and silent meals, and they also received training on how to listen and speak to each other in such a way that more understanding and peace could be possible between them as individuals and as nations.

With the guidance and support of the monks and nuns, they sat down and listened to each other. When one person spoke no one interrupted him or her. Everyone practiced mindfulness of their breathing and listening in such a way that the other person felt heard and understood.

When a person spoke, they refrained from using words of blame, hatred, and condemnation. They spoke in an atmosphere of trust and respect. Out of these dialogues the participating Palestinians and Israelis were very moved to realize that both sides suffer from fear. They appreciated the practice of deep listening and made arrangements to share what they had learned with others upon returning to their home countries. [/quote]

Thich Nhat Hanh is a Vietnamese monk in the Zen tradition, who worked tirelessly for peace during the Vietnam War, rebuilding villages destroyed by the hostilities. Following an anti-war lecture tour in the United States, he was not allowed back in his country and settled in France.

In 1967, he was nominated by the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., for the Nobel Peace Prize. He is now internationally known for his teaching and writing on mindfulness, and for his work related to “socially engaged Buddhism,” a call to social action based on Buddhist principles.

Everyone is calling for the ‘head’ of this guy. But the irony of it is that he hasn’t been found or detained, AFAIK. Which means he’s more a risk to society now. This man has been publicly shamed, everyone knows his family and his former address. He has lost his job and is ‘on the run’ so the speak.

Now how is this a risk? Well, for one, we can establish that he does have some sort of mental problem. Now, it’s been proven that people who do torture animals are at a risk for going on to doing the same to humans. Now should he not do that, he will not be able to get a job. Which means that he goes on unemployment insurance and becomes a burden to society. Now he’s even more isolated with building anger and resentment toward others, that could explode or implode.

I wish the best for this situation to resolve itself in the most healthest way possible.

Aren’t we lucky that Manson is up for parole next year. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

Aren’t we lucky that Manson is up for parole next year. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson[/quote]

And aren’t we lucky that the justice system still has some common sense. :laughing:

In my opinion, the verbal condemnation and shame he is receiving from society right now is part of his punishment.

It’s what happens when you fuck up in society. People throw rocks at you if you break the rules.

It probably won’t reform him into understanding what he did is wrong, but it is a consequence of what he’s done.

It’d be nice, but I wouldn’t expect it from most people I know, much less a stranger. Judging is what we do everyday. It’s what we do at the first sight of someone. You’re judging us as lacking in compassion. We’re judging this man as unworthy of life.

If one day, I kidnap a child and torture it to death for fun, I would not even dream of people being non-judgemental towards me, because that is a crime beyond any means of redemption. I would be a socipath, a threat to society, I’d be someone so fucked up in the head that it cannot be fixed, and I sure as hell hope society would decide to shoot me real soon after I did it, cause I’d be incapable of remorse or reform, since I just wouldn’t think what I did was wrong. And I should be shot instead of them spending thousands of hours and dollars trying to fix what was wrong with me, cause I wouldn’t understand. The therapy and bullshit wouldn’t make killing any less fun for me.

But law enforcement and the judicial system usually will not ignore cases of murder, and they(hopefully) thoroughly investigate them. Often cases of animal abuse are just ignored. Heck, caging a dog up in a tiny cage for its entire life doesn’t even constitute animal abuse here, since everyone does it.

Well, that is apart of this society and alot of others. Many people do stuff here everyday that they think there won’t be any consequences. And you know what=there usually isn’t. Luckly for the cats, and for him there was. [/quote]
And as I said, now they know there can be SERIOUS consequences.

Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise, even if you feel there is still a lot people who beat children. It hasn’t been eradicated from the Taiwanese society, but things have changed. I don’t remember ever, or only very rarely, seeing news about child abuse when I was young. It just wasn’t seen as an issue. It wasn’t seen as wrong, since the kid belongs to the parents, and what the parents do is their business. But now when there are bad cases of abuse, they appear on the news, and the parents are condemned by society for being cruel to their own life and blood. It’s illegal to use corpal punishment in schools now. Now kids in schools don’t get whipped every time the teacher thinks they’ve screwed up.

[quote][quote=“Namahottie”]
Remember what we see as an example is called ‘lose of face’ over here. And to lose face can have some times have serious repercussions. [/quote]

Apples and organes but I’ll play. Sure being outted has serious repercussions, but it doen’t unring that bell, and it sure as hell doesn’t alter the intial behaviour.[/quote]
It’s not apples and oranges. You were suggesting that “being made an example of” is somehow different or doesn’t exist in Taiwan. I’m saying it isn’t. He is being made an example of right now. Being made an example of in Taiwan isn’t called “losing face”. It’s called being made an example of. Losing face is what happens after you’ve been made an example of. And you lose face after you’re made an example of anywhere in the world. People lose respect for you, think less of you, etc. That is losing face.

As you can see, the outrage of hearing about this act hasn’t passed for most of us right now. Maybe in a year or two they’ll find compassion for this fellow, but I know I won’t.

I personally don’t believe he deserves a second chance. A murderer may deserve a second chance, if somehow he were pushed into doing it. Like his mother was beating him everyday for ten years until he finally just couldn’t take it anymore and killed her. He at least had a reason. He didn’t kill for the fun of it.

But this man did. He killed and tortured the kitten till it died. And posted it on the internet to share his glee with the world. Nobody forced, pressured, or even suggested he do it. He wanted to do it, and he was happy doing it! That’s crossing a very brightly fire-engine-red coloured line with flashing yellow lights on it in my world straight to, well, the land of being unworthy of life. Society shouldn’t waste its resources on him trying to help him become a normal human being. He would just be euthanised, if I made the laws of the world.

Unfortunately, I don’t rule the world. Yet. But I’ll let y’all know when I finish establishing my dictatorship.

[quote=“lupillus”]In my opinion, the verbal condemnation and shame he is receiving from society right now is part of his punishment.

It’s what happens when you fuck up in society. People throw rocks at you if you break the rules.[/quote] Good to know that. I’m going start carrying gravel around with me when I drive. Goddarn taxi drivers. :fume:

[quote]It probably won’t reform him into understanding what he did is wrong, but it is a consequence of what he’s done. [/quote] No it won’t reform him. So then what’s the purpose of you saying he needs to go to jail then? That’s primary purpose of jail-reform.

[quote]It’d be nice, but I wouldn’t expect it from most people I know, much less a stranger. Judging is what we do everyday. It’s what we do at the first sight of someone. You’re judging us as lacking in compassion. We’re judging this man as unworthy of life.
[/quote]I’m not judging any of you. I’m questioning where is the compassion.

[quote]If one day, I kidnap a child and torture it to death for fun, I would not even dream of people being non-judgemental towards me, because that is a crime beyond any means of redemption. I would be a sociopath, a threat to society, I’d be someone so fucked up in the head that it cannot be fixed, and I sure as hell hope society would decide to shoot me real soon after I did it, cause I’d be incapable of remorse or reform, since I just wouldn’t think what I did was wrong. And I should be shot instead of them spending thousands of hours and dollars trying to fix what was wrong with me, cause I wouldn’t understand. The therapy and bullshit wouldn’t make killing any less fun for me.[/quote]The world is not so black and white. Wait until you do fuck up majorly. I think you’ll be singing another tune.

[quote]But law enforcement and the judicial system usually will not ignore cases of murder, and they(hopefully) thoroughly investigate them. Often cases of animal abuse are just ignored. Heck, caging a dog up in a tiny cage for its entire life doesn’t even constitute animal abuse here, since everyone does it.[/quote] In Taiwan you mean? Yes, if the prep is caught then you can’t ignore the case of murder. Here in Taiwan all forms of abuse is pretty much ignored, at least on some level or another.

Well, that is apart of this society and a lot of others. Many people do stuff here everyday that they think there won’t be any consequences. And you know what=there usually isn’t. Luckily for the cats, and for him there was. [/quote]

[quote]And as I said, now they know there can be SERIOUS consequences.[/quote] And what are the consequences. AFAIK, he’s not in jail. For all I know he could be down on ZhongXiao having a slurpie. :s

[quote]Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise, even if you feel there is still a lot people who beat children. It hasn’t been eradicated from the Taiwanese society, but things have changed. I don’t remember ever, or only very rarely, seeing news about child abuse when I was young. It just wasn’t seen as an issue. It wasn’t seen as wrong, since the kid belongs to the parents, and what the parents do is their business. But now when there are bad cases of abuse, they appear on the news, and the parents are condemned by society for being cruel to their own life and blood. It’s illegal to use corporal punishment in schools now. Now kids in schools don’t get whipped every time the teacher thinks they’ve screwed up. [/quote]And your point is? Still hasn’t gotten the laws on the books or enforced. Abuse is still going unreported. Victims are counselled to stay with other family members. And from my ‘idea’ of how things work in Taiwan, that could work against healing. So, having your face plastered all over the place is really going to work in getting people to realize value, respect, and compassion? No it’s not. Those who do it will ensure they do it more discreetly, exerting more control over the situation so they don’t get found out.

[quote]It’s not apples and oranges. You were suggesting that “being made an example of” is somehow different or doesn’t exist in Taiwan. I’m saying it isn’t. He is being made an example of right now. Being made an example of in Taiwan isn’t called “losing face”. It’s called being made an example of. Losing face is what happens after you’ve been made an example of. And you lose face after you’re made an example of anywhere in the world. People lose respect for you, think less of you, etc. That is losing face. [/quote] I know what losing face is. We have it all over the world. Taiwan isn’t special. Losing face is just another word for shaming someone. Still doesn’t unring that bell.

[quote]As you can see, the outrage of hearing about this act hasn’t passed for most of us right now. Maybe in a year or two they’ll find compassion for this fellow, but I know I won’t.[/quote]Doubt it. Like most mass lynchings, once the blood thirst drama has been filled , it will die down. And most people will go back to life as usual.

[quote]
I personally don’t believe he deserves a second chance. A murderer may deserve a second chance, if somehow he were pushed into doing it. Like his mother was beating him everyday for ten years until he finally just couldn’t take it anymore and killed her. He at least had a reason. He didn’t kill for the fun of it.[/quote]I don’t think you fully realize what you are saying or at least thinking your about your debate fully enough.

[quote]But this man did. He killed and tortured the kitten till it died. And posted it on the Internet to share his glee with the world. Nobody forced, pressured, or even suggested he do it. He wanted to do it, and he was happy doing it! That’s crossing a very brightly fire-engine-red coloured line with flashing yellow lights on it in my world straight to, well, the land of being unworthy of life. Society shouldn’t waste its resources on him trying to help him become a normal human being. He would just be euthanized, if I made the laws of the world.[/quote] Ah yes, and the witch hunts still go on.

[quote]Unfortunately, I don’t rule the world. Yet. But I’ll let y’all know when I finish establishing my [color=darkred]dictatorship[/color].[/quote] Funny you use the word dictatorship-a person who uses their power to manipulate, control, oppress, and even go to the extent to kill to maintain their rule over other’s lives. Isn’t that what you are condemning this man for doing? Are you sure you want to use such scarism in this argument?

Eh? The primary purpose of jail is to take criminals off the street, out of society and punish them.

In questioning where is the compassion you’re being entirely judgemental. I’ve already told you several times that I have mucho compassion.

[quote]Quote:
And as I said, now they know there can be SERIOUS consequences.
And what are the consequences. AFAIK, he’s not in jail. For all I know he could be down on Zhongxiao having a slurpie. [/quote]
No. He’s lost his job, can’t go back to his apartment and is in hiding. With much worse to come, let’s all pray.

[quote]Quote:

I personally don’t believe he deserves a second chance. A murderer may deserve a second chance, if somehow he were pushed into doing it. Like his mother was beating him everyday for ten years until he finally just couldn’t take it anymore and killed her. He at least had a reason. He didn’t kill for the fun of it.
I don’t think you fully realize what you are saying or at least thinking your about your debate fully enough. [/quote]
I know exactly what she’s saying and I fully agree. It’s YOU who I don’t think really understands what she’s saying, simple though her concept is – some people might deserve a second chance, depending on the circumstances. This guy doesn’t.

I never said he needed to go to jail. Giving him a cell and food provided by the government is a waste of the world’s resources, IMO. I said he ought to be removed from the world.

Um. ok. Well…since by your definition, we have none, why are you asking something you know already?

Some crimes are black and white. If you think I’ll be singing another tune when I kidnap a child and torture it to death for fun, you’re wrong. I won’t be changing my tune, because I simply would not do something like that. Because I follow the rules of society and morals drilled into my head by “western imperialism”. Rules that say it’s just not right to do something like that for fun.

Perpetrators of other crimes may deserve compassion. Like killing in self defense, prostitution, accidentally hitting someone with a vehicle, among other things.

Killing animals, children, other people in cruel ways for the pure enjoyment of it is a way to fuck up majorly that I don’t think deserves compassion.

Every single person that has ever known him in Taiwan now knows he’s a sick bastard. That’s a pretty serious consequence IMO.

[quote]And your point is? Still hasn’t gotten the laws on the books or enforced. Abuse is still going unreported. Victims are counselled to stay with other family members. And from my ‘idea’ of how things work in Taiwan, that could work against healing. So, having your face plastered all over the place is really going to work in getting people to realize value, respect, and compassion? No it’s not. Those who do it will ensure they do it more discreetly, exerting more control over the situation so they don’t get found out. [/quote] Um. I just stated my point in the first sentence of what you quoted above. Maybe you should go back and read it if you don’t understand. Or hey, I’ll recap it for you right here:

[quote]Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
Awareness for domestic/child abuse is definitely on the rise!
[/quote]

Ah, yes. Shame him into being the poster boy for abusers. You haven’t been in this country very long, if you have you haven’t observed enough. So, we use him as an ‘example’ and you some how think this is going to alter the mentality in Taiwan. Remember what we see as an example is called ‘lose of face’ over here. And to lose face can have some times have serious repercussions. [/quote] Losing face is not equal to making an example of someone. The actual shame is described as losing face. “I lost face” = “I felt ashamed”. Trying to use cool words that supposedly describe Asian concepts is great, but inaccurate when they’re used the wrong way.

A king can be right and just, cannae he?

Is a king not a dictator?

[quote]Eh? The primary purpose of jail is to take criminals off the street, out of society and punish them.[/quote] And to rehabilitate them. Which means = To restore to a condition of health or useful constructive activity.

[quote]In questioning where is the compassion you’re being entirely judgemental. I’ve already told you several times that I have mucho compassion.[/quote] No, judgement would be me saying that everyone is wrong in their argument and should be feeling xyz. I don’t recall saying anyone should be feeling anything nor do I recall saying anyone is wrong in the position they are taking. But I am presenting a ? and asking for others to see another aspect of this situation.

[quote]Quote:
And as I said, now they know there can be SERIOUS consequences.
And what are the consequences. AFAIK, he’s not in jail. For all I know he could be down on Zhongxiao having a slurpee. [/quote]

[quote]No. He’s lost his job, can’t go back to his apartment and is in hiding. With much worse to come, let’s all pray.[/quote] Yea he does need a few prayers.

[quote]Quote:

I personally don’t believe he deserves a second chance. A murderer may deserve a second chance, if somehow he were pushed into doing it. Like his mother was beating him everyday for ten years until he finally just couldn’t take it anymore and killed her. He at least had a reason. He didn’t kill for the fun of it.
I don’t think you fully realize what you are saying or at least thinking your about your debate fully enough. [/quote]

[quote]I know exactly what she’s saying and I fully agree. It’s YOU who I don’t think really understands what she’s saying, simple though her concept is – some people might deserve a second chance, depending on the circumstances. This guy doesn’t. [/quote] I think her argument is IMHO a bit dramatic to get the point across. In fact it absolutely doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Let’s deconstructe for argument’s sake.

  1. A murderer may deserve a second chance, if somehow he were pushed into doing it.

[color=darkred]If I was sitting on a jury and defense presented this to me I would say hell no. Unless their closing argument had sound proof without reasonable doubt that this was the only option. Even then I would still have doubt. You would have to present to me a case where some one was pushed in to murder and where I should give them a second chance. [/color]

2)Like his mother was beating him everyday for ten years until he finally just couldn’t take it anymore and killed her.
[color=darkred]This still doesn’t justify murder. So, you retaliate with violence to say violence is wrong. Well guess what, your oppressor won the battle. You gave your power over to that person rather than saying you know what, I have other choices to make in life. [/color]

  1. He at least had a reason. He didn’t kill for the fun of it.
    [color=darkred]So now their are ‘legitimate’ reasons for violating life and harming it?[/color]

I think maybe you and lupillus might wanna meditateon or read MT’s post again. Compassion has aboslutely nothing to do with a pity party or feeling sorry for someone, or letting them off the hook or say “lets have a group hug”.

Compassion has to do with reconizing the pain and suffering of another person. A person who does this isn’t in their right state of mind or spirit. They are in pain.

Having and practicing compassion is not an easy thing to do.