Conflict: Israel and Lebanon part 3

Politics International Politics
1

[quote]Tigerman :
Not excusing anything, but, what was the UN doing there?

MikeN :
Not much, obviously.

Tigerman
Well, yes. I know that.

But, what was it supposed to be doing?[/quote]

Observing. Been there for twenty years, apparently, and lit up like a ship. Of course, nothing new in any of this, the Israelis have always killed innocents as a matter of principle. If the killing gets too onerous they use their proxies just like they did at Sabra and Shatilla. Do you suppose these criminal fuckers have any WMDs secreted around the orange groves? Might it not be a good thing to push for regime change at the very least?

[quote]Israel attack ‘deliberate’

. . . THE United Nations repeatedly asked Israel to stop bombarding its position at Khiyam in southern Lebanon in the hours leading up to the deaths of four international observers, according to a UN military source.

. . . A United Nations source said the organisation had protested repeatedly to the Israelis during shelling on Tuesday about the strikes that preceded the fatal bombing that night.

The pattern of the fire made it clear that it came from the Israelis, the source said, and only Israel possessed weapons heavy enough to penetrate the fortified bunker in which the observers were sheltering.

But it was unclear how or why an Israeli aircraft came to bomb a clearly marked UN position which should have been indicated as exempt from attack.

“This position has been there for 20 years,” the UN source said. "In the old days that was the front line. Israel knows these positions and they have had two weeks to zero in on this area and register targets and where you don’t want to hit. That’s standard behaviour.

"They [the bunkers] are big white things - you can see them for miles and they are lit up at night. Even if the Israelis just arrived cold from the moon two weeks ago, they have been firing there in that area regularly for two weeks.

“As a fire control issue it is a nonsense. If you keep firing all afternoon into a position like that, then ultimately something will go wrong.”[/quote]

HG

2

My guess is that Hizbollah was deliberately staging mortar attacks from the UN observer post location both because it was high ground and because forcing Israel to hit the UN post would have propaganda value.

3

Then why use a bunker busting bomb?

HG

4

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Then why use a bunker busting bomb?

HG[/quote]

The most logical explanation I can think of is after repeatedly shelling the location and having mortar rounds keep coming from there the local IDF commanders concluded Hizbollah was retreating into the bunker each time to hide from the artillery rounds.

5

Agree that may be the case, but the UN observers were in contact with the Israelis, and presumabley too controlled their own perimeter. Best to stick with what’s known me thinks, which is that those murderous Israelis bastards have again deliberately targetted inoccents.

HG

6

What’s there to observe anyway? Israel is going to blow the shit out of southern Lebanon and even parts of Beirut. If it doesn’t let rip with all its new rockets every so often people might start asking what they’re for. As Israel has no economy worth talking about other than American aid, it needs a certain level of conflict externally and fear internally to keep going. Blowing the crap out of southern Lebanon will also result in very little action on the international front as no-one really gives a fuck about Lebanon. “Ooh nice place for a holiday now - oops, oh well” is about the level of international response you’ll get for bombing it. This will also remind big scary neighbours that you don’t fuck with Israel or we blow you up. This is how it’s always been. Two problems now are that destroying Hezbollah (or whatever this week’s spelling is) is not like fighting a visible conventional army, and also this strategy works until Iran’s bomb is ready and no longer. With regard to the former point, you will notice that the Israeli’s are fighting a terrorist guerilla group with a conventional army. Bit like marching the Dragoon Guards into Belfast to fight the IRA. Utterly ineffective but very very visible. You can be sure Mossad is beavering away in the background, but this overt action is a big showpiece that has been in the offings for some time. The kidnap was just the occaision for kicking it off, not the reason. If it appears disproportionate (and of course it is) this will only result in more tut-tutting from certain quarters but no actual sanctions. Business as usual.

There has to be a better foundation for the state of Israel that a client state for Western arms sales and Our Arab-frightener in the Middle East. Surely the Israelis look forward to a time when conscription is abolished and the country has a normal economy? Or is it really permanent war? I really can’t believe that Israelis prefer this to making political concessions. I can understand the mentality of not giving in to the terrorists in the manner of Northern Ireland, but it could have been done better there and I think people have learnt from that. (The impression the the Good Friday Agreement was a con and the IRA got everything they wanted, whilst not 100% accurate, is very strong in certain quarters). There has to be a way to reach a settlement without making the Israelis feel they have been “beaten” by the terrorists or have “given in”. This ad hoc damage control is not working and only leads to more of the same.

Unless that is the intention… (cue sinister music)

7

How depressingly lucid, Lord Lucan.

You mean the English pig dogs didn’t level Belfast suburbs while winkling out American funded terrorists? How did they ever attain peace if they didn’t resort to extreme overkill? Strange days.

HG

8

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Agree that may be the case, but the UN observers were in contact with the Israelis, and presumabley too controlled their own perimeter. Best to stick with what’s known me thinks, which is that those murderous Israelis bastards have again deliberately targetted inoccents.

HG[/quote]

My point is I don’t think it’s known yet that the IDF deliberately targeted innocents. That may be the case but the full set of facts is yet unknown.

It is a fact though that there is no good side in this conflict. Both sides have abdicated their fundamental moral responsibilities, which is particularly disillusioning in the case of Israel because the very purpose for its existence is to be a “light unto nations.” It’s that higher calling which gives it the unique right to be a homeland for one religion like no other.

9

Hezbollah has been allowed to operate out of Lebanon because the Lebanese “government” has neither the will nor the ability to do anything about it, a la Irish government re Northern Ireland. Better for Israel’s defence to have a strong Lebanese government with a strong army and intelligence service. What Israel wants it usually gets, from Uncle Sam. The question is, why has Lebanon been hung out to dry? It would appear that no-one at all gives a shit. Iran and Syria don’t want a strong Lebanon as the current one is an excellent target for Israel to vent its anger and distracts everyone’s attention from what’s going on in Tehran and Damascus. Anyway the Iranian and Syrian governments like the Lebanese only marginally less than they like each other. The Lebanese are spiritually polluted hedonists and a good strong dose of divine retribution from the Israelis will probably teach them a thing or two about the dangers of straying too far from the path of righteousness. (Meanwhile… “Sort that fucking bomb out Mohammed while no-one’s looking!”)

10

You might be right, but given that:

[quote]UN observers made 10 frantic telephone calls to the Israeli military, warning them aerial attacks were getting close to their post, in the hours before a direct hit on their bunker killed four peacekeepers.
A UN report released last night said the peacekeepers were told during each of the calls that the bombing would cease, but they were then hit by a precision-guided missile. [/quote]

And given Israel’s illustrious track record, I think the normally careful Kofi Annan knew very well what he was saying when he accused Israel of

HG

11

[quote=“gomerpyle”]QUOTE:A poll of attitudes among Israel’s Jews towards their country’s Arab citizens has exposed widespread racism, with large numbers favoring segregation and policies to encourage Arabs to leave the country. The poll found that more than two-thirds of Jews would refuse to live in the same building as an Arab.

No doubt this attitude also existis in the US and Canada for that matter.Racism exists everywhere.I can just imagine what life would be like for an Israeli living in an Arab nation.And if life is so bad as an Arab living in Israel,why do so many choose to do so?[/quote]

Uh because their grandfather’s grandfather’s grandfather’s, well you get the idea, lived there and owned the land they’re living on which unfortunately is now in the State of Israel - duh :unamused: They would rather it was still an Arab nation, I’m sure. And, unlike you, it may not be so easy to just pick up and leave your farm especially if all your wealth is tied up in it. Come on! Got any intelligent questions to ask?

Bodo

12

Israel: recognized nation

Hezbollah: recognized armed terrorist group

hmm…[/quote]
JD your distinction is meaningless. These two groups are at war with one another. Anything goes or so it seems . . .

Bodo

13

Israel: recognized nation

Hezbollah: recognized armed terrorist group

hmm…[/quote]
JD your distinction is meaningless. These two groups are at war with one another. Anything goes or so it seems . . .

Bodo[/quote]

meaningless? Really? One functions (yet not always follows) the Geneva convention, the UN, the WTO, the WHO and other recognized organizations. The other is a band of thugs who have taken over a part of weak country AGAINST ITS WILL and beyond its ability to prevent it.

Sure, totally meaningless. :unamused:

To say they’re the same because they’re at war is silly.

14

Really, Hezzblah have a WTO rep?

HG

15

After reading spook’s comments regarding what likely happened, I have to say that the UN post was at least very much partially at fault.

What the fuck were they doing, sitting there while the Israelis tried to hit a Hizbollah position situated near the UN post? The UN, sitting there doing nothing, was actually in a way providing cover for Hizbollah.

If the UN was not going to stop Hizbollah from lobbing shit at Israel, then they should have got the fuck out when Israel started shooting back.

Yes, its tragic for the poor guys stationed at the UN post… but, holy asparagus, wtf were they doing there? Especially after the Israeli bombs started hitting closer and closer to their post?

So the UN was observing? Observing what? They ought to have got the fuck out if they were not going to do something to stop the violence.

Madness.

16

That’s almost funny Tigerman, I mean why now depart from your legendary determination to stick with what is known and instead follow Spook’s speculation? I have seen no reports of any mortar teams operating near the UN base - and that’s what it was, but I’ll be happy to reconsider if you can dig any up. And usually combatants don’t try and kill UN observers, except the Israelis, of course.

The UN has had observers based along the border for eons. A very fragile buffer between the two combatants. The UN was an organisation set up in the hope of preventing the catastrophes of WWI and WWII, but sadly, among other things, it was garrotted in it’s crib by US disdain. In other words, they were trying to help.

By the way. let’s not forget Israel’s previous targetting of UN facilities, such as during the 1996 “Grapes of Wrath” campaign when it blew the shit out of a UNIFIL compound in the southern village of Qana, killing 106 civilians sheltering inside.

Sorry, who’s friends are these?

HG

Edit:
United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, or UNFIL. According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) of 19 March 1978, UNIFIL was established to:

  • Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
  • Restore international peace and security;
  • Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.
    Most recently the mandate of UNIFIL was extended until 31 July 2006 by Security Council resolution 1655 (2006) of 31 January 2006.
17

Really, Hezzblah have a WTO rep?

HG[/quote]

Sure, but it’s actually on its to-do list, under buidling schools and regional enslavement.

18

A worthless, useless buffer, it seems.

19

sorry… mistake…

20

I wasn’t aware that anyone here was choosing a “friends’” side here.

Personally I wouldn’t invite “Israel” or “Hezbollah” to my house…