Whenever I’m in Bali, I live in fear of Jewish suicide bombers.
But, they also have a choice. A way out, potentially. They can give up on the idea/dream of destroying Israel and killing all the Jews… which will allow the Israelis to withdraw from the occupied territories… which will allow for the establishment of a Palestinian state that accepts living side-by-side and peacefully with Israel… which will allow the US and other nations to provide financial assistance that will alleviate much of the misery and help to get the Palestinian people on their feet.
Well, its either that or continue to harrass Israel and vow to destroy israel, which will result in Israel maintaining the occupation of the territories and responding to violence with further violence, thus keeping the cycle of violence perfectly intact.
Will the circle be unbroken?
I think its up to the Palestinians to decide. Israel does not oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state, so long as it agrees to peacefully coexist with Israel… certainly not an unreasonable condition?
Seen the maps that come with that plan?
[quote=“spook”]
No. That’s a deluded notion with no rational basis.[/quote]
The whole war is filled with deluded notions. This is about two parties using their pain to justify their right to do whatever they want.
Yes.
What is the alternative?
The Israelis will strike back, hard, so long as the Palestinians continue to commit terrorism against Israel.
If the Palestinians give up their vow to destroy Israel and to kill all the Jews, then Israel can withdraw from the occupied territories, and a Palestinian state can be established, and the US and other nations will support that state. The only precondition is that the Palestinians must agree to allow Israel to exist and to give up the desire to kill all of the Jews.
If the Palestinians can accept Israel’s right to exist and the Jews’ right to live, the Israelis can accept a Palestinian state.
What is so godawful complicated about this?
Whenever I’m in Bali, I live in fear of Jewish suicide bombers.[/quote]
In Beirut, it’s Israeli bombers American citizens fled in fear of.
[quote=“Tigerman”]
What is so godawful complicated about this?[/quote]
No one is willing to lay down their arms first or willing to say sorry or just do something else that would be constructive.
I have and I am aware of the problems.
But, you want to start somewhere, don’t you? You have to start somewhere, don’t you?
I really do not see any alternative. The Israelis are not going to vacate the occupied territories so long as the Palestinians use them as launch pads for attacks against Israel (especially after the stunt pulled by Hizbollah from Lebanon). And what sane government would give up such territory so long as its enemy vowed to destroy it, and used that territory for that purpose?
No. The conditions under which the Palestinians live currently are appalling and intolerable. The sooner something can be done to start alleviating the pain and misery, the better. Arguing that a solution is not ideal is not a valid argument, IMO. People are dying in the meantime. That does concern you, right?
[quote=“spook”]Hizbollah made us do it
- More than 841 killed and 3243 wounded, the majority civiians and one-third of whom are children[/quote]
The Palestinians specifically target civilians. In fact, the Palestinians have murdered 123 Israeli children in the past several years.
[quote][b]A pregnant mother and her four daughters were shot dead Sunday after two terrorists opened fire at Israeli cars traveling near the Kissufim Crossing at the entrance to the Gush Katif settlement bloc in the Gaza Strip.
The dead were identified as Tali Hatuel, 34, eight months pregnant and her daughters Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, Merav, 2 all from the settlement of Katif.[/b] Details of the funerals have yet to be finalized
Two soldiers and an Israeli civilian were also wounded in the attack and were evacuated to Soroka Hospital in Be’er Sheba.
The IDF said that both of the gunmen, who arrived at the area by car, were killed in an ensuing firefight.
The militant Islamic Jihad and Popular Resistance Committees, an umbrella group, claimed responsibility for the “heroic” attack in a call to The Associated Press.[/quote]
info.jpost.com/C002/Supplements/ … 05_02.html
[quote]TEL AVIV – The death yesterday of Daniel Wultz, a Florida teenager critically injured last month in a suicide bombing at an Israeli restaurant, is a “gift from Allah” and revenge against American Jewish support for Israel, Abu Nasser, a leader of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, one of the groups responsible for the deadly blast, told WorldNetDaily.
Abu Amin, a leader of the Islamic Jihad, which also took responsibility for the April 17 bombing…
Wultz, 16, was one of over 60 people injured in the attack in which a Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in a crowded section of Tel Aviv as Israelis celebrated the fifth day of the Passover holiday. The blast ripped through a falafel restaurant just outside the city’s old central bus station, killing nine. The same restaurant was hit by a suicide attack in January, wounding 20. A tenth Israeli victim passed away this weekend. Wultz’s demise yesterday brought to 11 the total number of deaths from the suicide blast so far.[/quote]
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a … E_ID=50203
jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? … 2FShowFull
Cute quote. 
The Palestinians would certainly agree with you since Jamal Abu Al-Rub, one of their top “leaders” calls himself “Hitler”…they are big fans of all things Aryan. Don’t forget spook, “you sleep with dogs, you get up with fleas.”
Whenever I’m in Bali, I live in fear of Jewish suicide bombers.[/quote]
In Beirut, it’s Israeli bombers American citizens fled in fear of.[/quote]
I don’t give a rats ass about a US passport carrying Muslim from Dearborn getting bombed in Beirut. I’d be perfectly happy to call in the airstrike.
True, technically they have a choice.
Is it a choice they could conceivably make? I speak in another thread (the Canada war thread) about how I don’t believe in war and that I wouldn’t fight if called to. However, in the situation of no education, no money, no prospects, no hope, would I be able to live to those ideals? I’d like to think so.
But, and I repeat, but, I don’t live in that situation. It’s all very well for me to say that I’m a pacifist and wouldn’t fight, but I know nothing else.
If I were raised in a situation where I had no prospects etc, if someone said to me “Go out, strap a bomb to yourself, you’ll have 72 virgins waiting for you etc”, what would I do? Honestly, I don’t know, because, and here is the important point, because, that’s not a situation I’ve ever been in, nor am likely to be in.
For the Palestinians who get approached by terrorist groups wanting them to go out and kill, and who turn around and say no, I have the utmost respect. That takes balls.
What would you do in the same situation? No money, no education, easily brainwashable, no prospects. Thugs with guns come to you and say “Go out and kill Israeli’s and we’ll give your family enough money to live (keep in mind the 75% poverty level).” Could/would you tell them to fuck off? I’d sure hope I could, but I’m pretty sure that the bullets would be hitting me a few seconds later.
But the whole point of my post was that, if Israel continue to destroy infrastructure, and drop bombs in civilian areas, then they’re going to create more terrorists/insurgents/whatever you want to call them.
At least ground troops with guns can look through the sights and see whether the person they’re about to shoot is a grandma or not. Airstrikes can’t do that.
The Palestinians could quit fighting the Israel tomorow and their reward would be 2nd class citizenship on their own land and no control over their own natural resources.
And whose fault is that? The Gulf States, the Europeans and the old Soviet Union pumped billions of dollars into the Palestinian cause. What did they do with all that money?
They had their choice. They could have built schools and educated themselves. Look what they did instead…in every country into which they have been welcomed they have stabbed their host in the back. They started the civil war in Lebanon, Black September in Jordan and then they aided Saddam Hussein in Kuwait in 1991…they don’t learn. They have brought this upon themselves.
The old adage, “live by the sword, die by the sword” is not in the Koran.
[quote=“bob”]
The Palestinians could quit fighting the Israel tomorow and their reward would be 2nd class citizenship on their own land and no control over their own natural resources.[/quote]
Palestinians have political parties in Israel and are elected to the Israeli Knesset.
Well, I think its the only real choice they have. Its the only choice that could end the violence.
Strapping a bomb to yourself and killing a dozen Israelis might get your family a few dollars… might not… might get you 72 virgins… but, what it will not do is result in the Israelis suddenly pulling out of the occupied territories and or committing national suicide. It will result in further Israeli retaliations, which could conceivable kill your family even before they get to enjoy the reward bestowed upon them for your act of martyrdom.
Perhaps they could if the world would tell them that they will no longer support them so long as they terrorize Israel. I don’t know. But, I do know that as long as people and nations provide the Palestinians financial and moral support, the Palestinians will likely continue to employ terrorism as a means to the end they seek.
That’s why its important to get people to stop encouraging this behavior, and to stop supporting, financially, this behavior. I think quite a few suicide bombers would forego the chance at 72 virgins if they knew their families would remain in misery despite their martyrdom.
Right. See my comments above.
Well, Israel already has plenty of enemies in the middle east. Its likely more important that their enemies fear them than it is that some in the middle east do not hate them.
True. But airstrikes can solve the problem of Iran and Syria resupplying Israel’s enemy. The Israelis won the 1973 war because they stopped the Syrians from resupplying their army (tanks) which were ready to roll into Israel. Israel hasn’t forgot that lesson.
So what’s the alternative? Kill all the Israelis?
If it were so cut and dried as, “Recognize Israel” it might get resolved. It ain’t.
Tiger-by-the-ears.
What sane gov’t would give up land from which it might be attacked? What sane gov’t would hold on to land knowing that doing so invites attack?
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
The Palestinians had shit for leadership for decades, and too many loved the old bastard who looked like a poorly-plucked chicken’s ass simply because Israel couldn’t (or wouldn’t) kill him, no matter how many times he gave them the finger. (Personally, I think it’s wouldn’t. The Israelis certainly proved capable of knocking off any competent #2 or #3 man in the PLO… anyone who might provide real leadership and pose a serious challenge.) Given a chance to vote the bastards out, they did. Given that the alternative (nursed by Israel early on) was worse, that wasn’t much to celebrate, was it?
You want the Palestines to take the first step by recognizing Israel. What does that mean? The Palestinians are not going to roll over, any more than the Israelis are. And collectively they’re so far down in this vicious cycle that it’s all chicken and the egg retaliation anyways.
But yes, they have to start somewhere. With that in mind, a bunch of people from both sides, no longer in government, took themselves off and hammered out their own agreement; which gave those in power a fit. It was a few years ago, but it’s probably still the best place to start (once the shooting dies down). You can read the agreement here: the Geneva Accord. I suggest that you compare it, in detail, to officially sanctioned peace plans and road maps. It’s enlightening.
For a better handle on the complexity of the spatial issues, I recommend that you read through The Politics of Verticality. It’s particularly relevant given the three dimensional solutions to shared space issues proposed by the architect of the Oslo Accords, and the claims and visit that sparked the second intifada, and I highly recommend parts 1: Intro, 4: West Bank settlements, 5: Optical Urbanism, and 7: From water to shit. Unfortunately, much of it was a photo essay, and over the past three or four years since I last went through it, many of the photos seem to have been removed. As an alternative, this video of the report’s author might be worthwhile. I’ve not yet watched it save for snippets, but once you get passed the people doing the intros, and come to Eyal discussing the politics of architecture, it looks good.
Yes.
What is the alternative?
The Israelis will strike back, hard, so long as the Palestinians continue to commit terrorism against Israel.
If the Palestinians give up their vow to destroy Israel and to kill all the Jews, then Israel can withdraw from the occupied territories, and a Palestinian state can be established, and the US and other nations will support that state. The only precondition is that the Palestinians must agree to allow Israel to exist and to give up the desire to kill all of the Jews.
If the Palestinians can accept Israel’s right to exist and the Jews’ right to live, the Israelis can accept a Palestinian state.
What is so godawful complicated about this?[/quote]
If the Israelis can give up their settlements and withdraw from the occupied territories, then the Palestinians can stop attacking Israel to win back their land.
What’s so godawful complicated about that?
Everything, of course.
The fact that while the great majority of Palestinians want to live peacefully with the Jews, either in a two-state or bi-national solution, a small minority do not.
And while the great majority of Jews want to live peacefully with the Palestinians in a two-state solution, a small minority do not.
That’s what torpedoed the Oslo Accords. Arafat couldn’t or wouldn’t control the bombers; after the assasssination of Rabin by a fanatical Israeli extremist the
Israelis either couldn’t or wouldn’t control the expansion of the settlements.
The current situation gives a veto power to extremists. Witness the latest outbreak of violence.
( BTW it’s nice of you to make offers on behalf of the settlers and their supporters, but unfortunately it’s not up to you or me to deliver on those promises.)
The only viable answer at the moment is a two-state solution based roughly on the Camp David accords.
But any statement that begins “the Palestinians must first…”
Or “the Israelis must first…”
is necessarily doomed to failure.
No, the alternative is for Israel to start pulling out of the occupied territories first and for the Israelis to show a lot more restraint in the way they respond to attacks. Such a capacity for restraint should be the condition upon which US support is maintained.
No, the alternative is for Israel to start pulling out of the occupied territories first and for the Israelis to show a lot more restraint in the way they respond to attacks. Such a capacity for restraint should be the condition upon which US support is maintained.[/quote]
They’ve shown tremendous restraint. Last month, they could have simply sterilized a 30 mile wide strip along their borders. They didn’t. They could have vaporized Damascus. They didn’t. The fact is, they’ve pulled their punches in every war since 1948. Much to their disadvantage.