Confucian ethics + loss of face = apocalyptic rage... Why?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

I’m minding my own business doing some design work at home when on the security cam monitor in my office I happened to notice some woman on the small, quiet street right outside my front door setting her 5-ish year old daughter up to take a pee in the drain which is 40cm away from my front gate… I live in a typical semi detached house with a small, walled off garden in front, on a quiet street in the Eastern extremities of Taichung… In the past, the trashy retired neighbors who illegally run a hair dresser business next door to me were in the habit of taking the kids they apparently, and no doubt illegally, take care of while their folks are at work over to said drain to relieve themselves and I had told them in no uncertain terms to desist… I was aware that children being made to use public drains as toilets is common (in every sense of the word) practice in Taiwan, but told them that if they insisted on personal hygiene practices from the dark ages that they could do whatever they liked with the drains outside their own house, but to stay the hell away from the one immediately outside my front door… So, back to this afternoon and I decided that since the woman and kid in question had walked over from the direction of said neighbors before the peeing commenced, that this may be a prime chance for some more negative reinforcement training…

As I opened my front gate the woman was getting the kid’s pants back on and I said to her (in Chinese of course, this isn’t Taipei), “Does this look like a toilet to you?”… To which she replied, “Oh… The kid was desperate, buhaoyisi.”… I asked her why, since she was already hanging out in the neighbor’s street level front room/hair salon, did she not take the kid to use the first floor toilet in their house instead of bringing her outside to piss in the drain, or if the kid was so desperate why didn’t she take the kid to piss in the drain immediately outside the neighbor’s house rather than taking to the time to come over to the drain outside mine… Visibly irate and already muttering at being called out on her inconsiderate and unhygienic third world behavior she darted back into the neighbor’s to get some water to wash the pee down the drain (the kid missed the actual grate) leaving the kid standing somewhat dumbstruck in the street outside my door… Already feeling bad for the ankle biter I said, “Don’t worry, you didn’t do anything wrong, you’re not in trouble.” but just while I was doing so the woman returned with a small pale of water and in a very obnoxious and hostile manner started snapping, “Is this good enough? Is this good enough?”… To which I said, “No, it’s not… What I’m complaining about isn’t your cleanup method but the fact you assume it’s okay to have your kid pissing in a drain when there’s a perfectly functional bathroom easily available.”… Now mildly furious at the loss of face and the fact I wasn’t letting her get away with it, she raised her voice and barked, “I’ve washed the pee away… What do you want?..”… Being somewhat peeved by her belligerence I told her that what I wanted was for her to explain to me what her objection to using a toilet was, but more than that, why she obviously didn’t want to use the much closer drain immediately outside her friend’s front room which is open to the street, but was happy to come and foul the area right at my front door 5 meters down the road, especially considering the kid was supposedly so desperate… At this point she must have run through the “small town Taiwanese loss of face mental flowchart” and reached the point after “Say-buhaoyisi-insincerely-and-sulk” which is apparently “Violently-take-leave-of-your-senses-and-start-screeching-like-a-banshee”…

Out of nowhere she goes incandescent with rage and starts screaming at the top of her lungs about what’s the matter with me, she washed the piss away and what do I want from her, bastard foreigner go home, how dare you keep hassling me about this, etc etc… Mid tantrum, she suddenly grabs the youngster and starts wailing on the kid with her flat hand and with the empty water bucket, shaking the child and screaming “you see what you did, you see what you did!”… She then fairly violently pushed the youngster to the ground and continued giving the kid a hiding with the empty water container… Even before her histrionics began her friends from next door and some geriatric folks from a couple of other houses had came out to see what the commotion was all about since there’s nothing they like better than a bit of low brow amateur dramatics… Thankfully they were standing right by her and pulled the psychotic woman away from the kid and attempted to subdue her as she was writhing with rage and lashing out at the poor little sod who was needless to say scared witless and in tears… The lunatic mother calmed down for a second then came at me brandishing her water bucket and shrieking before she was again dragged away to some deliberately restrained but heartfelt, “You’re the bloody adult here, you should know better than to blame the child for something you forced her to do you bloody ignorant peasant!” jibes from me… The bystanders were all somewhat shocked at the woman’s violent outburst and gradually slunk away, most of them back into the neighbor’s front room…

I’d chalk this up as just another day in the festering Confucion cauldron of contempt for your fellow man that is central Taiwan, but I really feel bad for the kid… I mean the woman is obviously several fruity hats short of a Mardi Gras and an unfit mother to boot, and had I known the end result would be a traumatized innocent youngster I’d obviously not have chided the woman as pointedly, but that’s the dilemma in and of itself… I’m all for sophomoric armchair sociology, blah, blah, cultural relativism and all that, but this woman’s behavior even before her violent outburst was devious, selfish, uncouth and unhygienic by anyone’s standards, to say nothing of her cowardly attack on her innocent daughter… Should I just have let it slide and said nothing in the name on Confucian harmony?.. Am I to blame for the poor little nipper crying herself to sleep tonight?.. Are we all to be held hostage to the potential psychoses and disproportionate responses of those who flagrantly disregard basic consideration for others, doomed to being the eternal victims of the lowest dregs of the Taiwanese social echelons for fear of rocking the cultural boat?..

2

Why wasting so much time on this, really?

I would have gone out and shout with an angry face. “Why do you have to go here to piss? Next time go somewhere else!” That’s absolutely sufficient. What’s the point of communicating in a way the other party doesn’t understand?

3

Classic post plasmatron. Really nicely written too. I have to bugger off to an important meeting (cough teach some kiddies cough) but will make a wordier post later. Cheers.

4

[quote=“hannes”]Why wasting so much time on this, really?

I would have gone out and shout with an angry face. “Why do you have to go here to piss? Next time go somewhere else!” That’s absolutely sufficient. What’s the point of communicating in a way the other party doesn’t understand?[/quote]

That’s what I would’ve done and then I would’ve had to face my wife’s long face. Eventually she would have opened up and told me that she also thinks it’s disgusting but that I shouldn’t have said anything… :s

I always lose, no matter what I do. :idunno:

5

Bismark, I didn’t realize that you were English.

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, it’s annoying to end up as the asshole for calling the real assholes on their behavior.

I remember insisting - like plasmatron - on an explanation or two in my early days here. I’m talking about fairly major f**k-ups that had pretty adverse consequences for me. The fact that the offenders thought that uttering a couple of words ( a “pie-say,” “buhaoyisi,” or a “baoqian”) was sufficient and closed the matter was insulting to say the least. Yet when you push it, they will often get angry.

The bottom line is that “face” is childish bullshit. There’s only so much of it you can take.

Edit: I especially love the following lines - I may have to steal them.

[quote]Are we all to be held hostage to the potential psychoses and disproportionate responses of those who flagrantly disregard basic consideration for others, doomed to being the eternal victims of the lowest dregs of the Taiwanese social echelons for fear of rocking the cultural boat?[/quote]…

6

Because you’re dealing with peasants. They’re the same the world over, there’s just more of them here. Or maybe it only feels that way.

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Speak not. Open thou thoust fly, wrestle Mr. ITakeNOPissFromManNorBeast into your sweaty paw and let forth a stream of foul effluvia unto the very flipflops of hayseed ignoramusosity yea before thy very presence.
A cheery “buhaoyisi, pai say PAI say!” should be enough to quell the spitting rage of peasantry that will be the result of your expectorations.

8

You speak Chinese well enough to not have her pass you off and say she didn’t understand you. The neighbors will still think you’re an Asshole though, even if you were right.

Interesting post, I’ve recently moved into a more 3 world area known as the Hsing Yi District in Taipei and have found sadly enough that by playing “who’s the bigger asshole” I seem to win. The neighbors who burn trash on their roof had the fire department called last time and I pointed out the old lady who did it to the firemen.

The neighbor next door who leaned on my door bell at 8 AM to complain that my bicycle was blocking the stairwell after I brought it in during a typhoon had me kicking her steel door as hard as I could with my work boots to complain about her umbrellas and slippers littering the stairs one evening.

The 3rd Floor lady who complained that another bicycle I had down by the front door was blocking her path had her rotted out bicycle that hadn’t moved in 2 months thrown in the pile for the EPA after I gave mine to a friend. I also tossed her Burning-paper-money dustbin in the EPA pile too after I complained that it was blocking MY path and was told, “Hey people gotta pray, wo mei ban fa” So I had a Big Ban Fa and got rid of it.

The A-hole who burns ghost money on the third floor next door that smokes up my apartment and told me, “What can I do about the smoke-Wo Mei Ban Fa” had me turn the hose on his back balcony with me yelling from above as it rained down water, “What can I do about the water-wo mei ban fa!”

Drilling neighbor next door on the other side had me swing a baseball bat at his window then I had him listen to loud music from my side while I left the apartment for 8 hours. He stopped the drilling on the weekends.

I’ve tried just ignoring these things then I release my fury or passive aggressively fuck with them. I really get no satisfaction in the end, I feel like I’m lowering myself to their level. But they seem to fuck with me less.

However in the end I won’t win and I’ll just wind up being the biggest asshole.

9

sometimes, I really wonder if I’m in Wonderland.

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[quote=“sandman”]Speak not. Open thou thoust fly, wrestle Mr. ITakeNOPissFromManNorBeast into your sweaty paw and let forth a stream of foul effluvia unto the very flipflops of hayseed ignoramusosity yea before thy very presence.
A cheery “buhaoyisi, pai say PAI say!” should be enough to quell the spitting rage of peasantry that will be the result of your expectorations.[/quote]

Don’t do this outside your own door. Go stand outside the neighbours’ place. That’s what I do to Sandman, and it’s lovely to see the way his face lights up with Pictish fury.

11

She washed it away. She apologized. She won’t do it again.

And you still have to live with all these neighbours. Come on, admit it, you were the apoplectic one.

12

My experience:

Daily Emotional Repression over Decades + Confrontation/Lose of Face = Explosion.

My further experience:

Don’t mistake politeness and diminutive stature for weakness. A lot of Taiwanese will escalate a conflict to its bitter end, especially if their lives aren’t all that great to begin with. You absolutely cannot win unless you have nothing to lose.

Put another way, you usually have more to lose than a person who takes her kid to piss next to your doorstep, so it behooves you to just let it go.

I hate the passive-aggressive behavior toward strangers that is a hallmark of public decorum here, but there isn’t fuck-all I can do about it.

13

My thoughts:
It was a girl, right? Did you perhaps not think that the mother wanted a little privacy? Away from the main wayfare?
Obviously the mother was stressed out, and obviously she lost it… , but maybe she’s got her own reasons for that.
Such as why she didn’t go back to her friends house.
As a woman, there are countless suppositions about exactly how she might have felt.
As for why? She’s not used to being moralized by decadent foreign devils!

We could analyze this all night, and well unto the morrow, but the fact of the matter is:

The OP, well written though his post most certainly was, should be lucky that it wasn’t a boy peeing on his own front door…

14

The crux of this issue: “Choose your battles wisely.”

15

I agree. Always leave people here an out, an exit strategy with which to withdraw. Let them know clearly what the problem is, but be careful about how far to push. Things can escalate quickly and dramatically if you go too far.

16

That’s truly a classic post Plasmatron. Hilarious story.

I think you were well within your right to say what you did to her as the episode unfolded as it did. As others have pointed out though, you just can’t win here in Taiwan being the foreinger in these kinds of situations. It does feel good sometimes though…

I’m trying to refine my language and tactics calling people out for parking in the handicapped scooter parking just outside my apartment front door. Sometimes I’m successful in getting through, other times I’m sure I am viewed as the bad guy who doesn’t understand or know his place.

17

Aw, think about the little girl though! Probably scarred for life…

Fight fire with fire, not erm, water. Well, stupid analogy, but you know what I mean.

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You haven’t to Plasmatrons house then have you? It is not on a main wayfare. It’s down somes lanes into a little alleyway. The neigbhours had to cross the raod cause they don’t like the smell of piss all over the road in front of their houses.

If she had wanted privacy the bathroom in her own house was closer than getting to the drain.

I think Plasma should just set up a bullhorn and screech at them from inside his house.

Better yet he should put up a 100L tippable water tank on his wall above the drain and let it flush the drain now and then.

19

I agree, but why do you think it’s just “people here”? People I’ve backed into a corner in the UK have also reacted aggressively. I believe it happens elsewhere too.

There seems to be a very prevalent belief on Forumosa that westerners don’t have a concept of “face”. And I think that’s rubbish. Everyone has some kind of concept of face; it just takes different forms.

Personally, I try not to back people into corners now. I feel it’s too much hassle all round. If I’m wronged in some way I’ll usually make my point and then if it’s obvious that I’m still not going to get a verbal commitment from the doer to refrain from such wrong-doing (or whatever it is I want), I try to leave it at that.

20

Agreed; it’s definitely the same in Thailand, and the UK. Everywhere has peasants that piss in your drains, either literally or metaphorically.

How to deal without getting angry or rolling over and taking it? No idea but there must be a better way? Not sure what it is. I would have responded differently, but I would have got wound up about it privately, which is perhaps worse (for me, anyway).