The saddest part is that the woman’s binary mentality and her frightful abuse of her daughter are being imprinted on the daughter, so that the daughter will become another child-beater and foster another drain-pisser. The near-term outcome is, however, what Plasma hoped to achieve. I’m pretty sure the woman will take her daughter to different street drain to piss (but not to a proper toilet). Plasma has also added a chapter to the neighborhood gossip annals that may sanctify that particular drain for its intended purpose.
I agree, but why do you think it’s just “people here”? People I’ve backed into a corner in the UK have also reacted aggressively. I believe it happens elsewhere too.
There seems to be a very prevalent belief on Forumosa that westerners don’t have a concept of “face”. And I think that’s rubbish. Everyone has some kind of concept of face; it just takes different forms.
Personally, I try not to back people into corners now. I feel it’s too much hassle all round. If I’m wronged in some way I’ll usually make my point and then if it’s obvious that I’m still not going to get a verbal commitment from the doer to refrain from such wrong-doing (or whatever it is I want), I try to leave it at that.[/quote]
You are right. I would never say that there is no concept of face in the West. Not backing people into corners is generally a sound strategy with which to approach life regardless of where you are. But to me it’s been a question of degree. Even in business, in what would normally be a cut and dried situation, in Taiwan requires inordinate amount of smoke signals, messages through intermediaries…what have you. Sure, I could get what I want through official channels, but usually that is the last resort. It’s generally easier to resolve the issues other ways. The interesting thing I find is that things are more formulaic. Once you’ve learned what the guidelines are, then things seem to get more predictable than in other cultures. For example when running into situation A, expect to hear something like B, which requires a response somewhat like C, which will give you result D plus or minus 20% (The Taiwan chabuduo factor). Any deviation is a signal that you are dealing with a nutter and alternative actions need to be considered. Of course, this is common to all societies, but the extent to which it works in Taiwan was a bit of a revelation to me. The good thing is that once you learn these rules, you just skim through life in Taiwan as long if you have the patience. What people are labeling passive aggressive behavior are just people working through the rules, or signaling that they are not getting what they want.
Foreigners mess things up because they don’t respond to the signals correctly and generally don’t have access to the relationships to make things work, “normally”.
That all said, sometimes Action Directe is called for. There are locals who exploit the rules for their own benefit. Just be ready for the blowback that will surely come.
Whats all this reference to [b]“peasants”[/b] I’m seeing on this rather excellent thread?
Apologies all round to Mi’ Lords and Ladies for suffering the indignities of the “peasants”. They probably also have rather hardened hands and a bit of dirt under their nails. How dreadful it must be…:snooty:
Last afternoon I was walking with the wife and son in one of the local public parks. A very pleasant place. Well laid out with walking paths and exercise stations. It has a small amphitheater and a nicely designed pond with large rocks and a water fountain/fall.
Of course there was also the almost required 2 youths shooting off the occasional firecrackers…lovely noise wafting on the afternoon breeze. The wife sensing my antenna raising quickly comments on how she “Enjoys the festival sound” of the children having fun. I give her a nod and a small empty smile - she scores first point.
Stopping to look at one of the nicely worded signs describing the flowers in the park, I notice two other youths down by the pond. One is just finishing up a carton container of orange juice…No, he won’t do…Yes the little shithead does - He throws it out into the pond!
OK…I have an obligation as a cranky foreigner…“Hey GO GET THAT!..BAD MONKEY…BAD!” I bellow in a ‘Voice of Command.’ (Not a yell…but an elevated, clear and forceful tone).
They give the old ‘deer in the headlights’ look and see me about 10 meters looking at and pointing directly at them. Others in the park do the same. So what happens?
Not a freakin’ thing. hey lower their nappy heads and push their bicycles up the hill and slink away. Out in the rather attractive pond the OJ carton lists at half-way sunk…testament to their inbred sense of non-responsibility for their actions and genetic don’t give a fuck attitude.
Of course the wife has words for…none are supportive of my actions.
But life goes on.
Well written post. Funny, and not necessarily out of line, but quite petty, IMO.
To me, it’s just a kid pissing. Quite a natural thing, really. The whole sewage is full of piss and shit only about 18 inches below the grate. I really doubt that a bit of piss on/next to the grate will have any impact on the smell emanating from the open sewage as it were.
As for hygiene, well, it’s still only a bit a piss, 18 inches away from a lot more piss. Just doesn’t bother me.
To be fair, my nose doesn’t work. It’s broken for all intents and purposes. It’s been like that for years, I can’t smell a fucking thing.
[quote=“Elegua”]You are right. I would never say that there is no concept of face in the West. Not backing people into corners is generally a sound strategy with which to approach life regardless of where you are. But to me it’s been a question of degree…[/quote]Right, fair comment. Things do tend to be more convoluted here in that regard.
Though I think us Brits are on the half-way mark as regards the complexity of the things we do to preserve face. On the whole, we’re not as direct as many Americans.
[quote=“marboulette”]Well written post. Funny, and not necessarily out of line, but quite petty, IMO.
To me, it’s just a kid pissing. Quite a natural thing, really. The whole sewage is full of piss and shit only about 18 inches below the grate. I really doubt that a bit of piss on/next to the grate will have any impact on the smell emanating from the open sewage as it were.
As for hygiene, well, it’s still only a bit a piss, 18 inches away from a lot more piss. Just doesn’t bother me.
To be fair, my nose doesn’t work. It’s broken for all intents and purposes. It’s been like that for years, I can’t smell a fucking thing.
marboulette[/quote]
Well, back home in 'ole South Africa, a certain portion of the population (who will remain nameless for PC’s sake) also tend to piss in the streets. The old come back is always, “It is my culture.” or “There is no toilet nearby.”
I never thought it was petty, natural or unhygienic.
I remember something I once read, and I paraphrase:
The mark of a civilization is how far it can remove itself from it’s own excrement and urine.
Back home I always thought that was on the mark, which is why I’ll never buy into the “all cultures are equal” bullcrap.
Let’s face it. Pissing in public is not hygienic nor petty. Teaching kids to do it is even worse, especially if there is a toilet facility nearby. Compound that with public pissing right on your doorstep. I think the OP was well within reason.
While “loss of face” is a universally disliked experience, the Chinese/Taiwanese reaction to it is uniquely melodramatic. They even have a phrase which neatly labels it: 惱羞成怒 (nao3 xiu1 cheng2 nu4) or, “to be shamed into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. It is kind of fun to reduce a deserving jackass with whom you will have no future contact to that emotional state, but it’s not exactly taking the high road…
While “loss of face” is a universally disliked experience, the Chinese/Taiwanese reaction to it is uniquely melodramatic. They even have a phrase which neatly labels it: 腦羞成怒 (nao2 xiu1 cheng2 nu4) or, “the brain shames into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. It is kind of fun to reduce a deserving jackass with whom you will have no future contact to that emotional state, but it’s not exactly taking the high road…[/quote]
I did it last year, quite accidentally, to a guy who owed me money. My mistake was to remind of him of what he promised and was now not delivering, effectively calling him a liar. I still have the video of him screaming at me, but the final settlement included an agreement not to show it to anyone.
It seems that challenging people is the problem. Lack of critical thinking skills means that when presented with a problem that can’t be compromised around in the interests of social harmony, most people just fall back on chest-beating. Under normal circumstances, people in Taiwan respond to anger by backing down, so being angry is a good tactic if you can’t think of anything more intelligent. Faced with a big-nose, who is more likely to offer a robust response and also lacks the appropriate status to be challenging anyone in the first place, I think the anger just gets bigger and bigger.
You have to leave people somewhere else to go. Or else enjoy the fireworks.
Greet story but the whole problem is not the woman it is with your translations skills.
You incorrectly translated bu hao ee si as some kind of an apology, (a common mistake) it is more aptly translated as, " I been caught acting like an asshole let me pretend to give a fuck, now fuck off"
While “loss of face” is a universally disliked experience, the Chinese/Taiwanese reaction to it is uniquely melodramatic. They even have a phrase which neatly labels it: 腦羞成怒 (nao2 xiu1 cheng2 nu4) or, “the brain shames into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. It is kind of fun to reduce a deserving jackass with whom you will have no future contact to that emotional state, but it’s not exactly taking the high road…[/quote]
And this:
[quote=“Loretta”]It seems that challenging people is the problem. Lack of critical thinking skills means that when presented with a problem that can’t be compromised around in the interests of social harmony, most people just fall back on chest-beating. Under normal circumstances, people in Taiwan respond to anger by backing down, so being angry is a good tactic if you can’t think of anything more intelligent. Faced with a big-nose, who is more likely to offer a robust response and also lacks the appropriate status to be challenging anyone in the first place, I think the anger just gets bigger and bigger.
You have to leave people somewhere else to go. Or else enjoy the fireworks.[/quote]
brings a lot more clarity to this sort of situation.
I remember something I once read, and I paraphrase:
The mark of a civilization is how far it can remove itself from it’s own excrement and urine.[/quote]Sure, but we’re only talking 18 inches, here. Does it REALLY make that much difference?
You get five minutes on the bench for that. Below the belt, and you KNOW it.
I remember something I once read, and I paraphrase:
The mark of a civilization is how far it can remove itself from it’s own excrement and urine.[/quote]Sure, but we’re only talking 18 inches, here. Does it REALLY make that much difference?
You get five minutes on the bench for that. Below the belt, and you KNOW it.
marboulette[/quote]
Ah, come on. Rob Schneider made a whole movie about it. Except the Canookian wasn’t pissing in the street, he was taking a dump. Them Canuck backpackers have a global reputation, you know.
I remember something I once read, and I paraphrase:
The mark of a civilization is how far it can remove itself from it’s own excrement and urine.[/quote]Sure, but we’re only talking 18 inches, here. Does it REALLY make that much difference?
[/quote]
Plasma buddy, you may have been in Taiwan longer than me but even I already worked out that the only sane place to live in central Taiwan is a GATED COMMUNITY. Keeps the plebs out real nice like.
While “loss of face” is a universally disliked experience, the Chinese/Taiwanese reaction to it is uniquely melodramatic. They even have a phrase which neatly labels it: 腦羞成怒 (nao2 xiu1 cheng2 nu4) or, “the brain shames into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. It is kind of fun to reduce a deserving jackass with whom you will have no future contact to that emotional state, but it’s not exactly taking the high road…[/quote]
Important info. It explains a lot. I certainly learned something this evening.
Apparently widely used, too:
Some of the instances are probably redundant, but I googled it in quotes, so I guess the above number gives a pretty good indication of how common it is.
While “loss of face” is a universally disliked experience, the Chinese/Taiwanese reaction to it is uniquely melodramatic. They even have a phrase which neatly labels it: 腦羞成怒 (nao2 xiu1 cheng2 nu4) or, “the brain shames into rage” If you provoke a person to that, rightly or wrongly, there is little hope of resuming a normal relationship with that person after that. It is kind of fun to reduce a deserving jackass with whom you will have no future contact to that emotional state, but it’s not exactly taking the high road…[/quote]
Important info. It explains a lot. I certainly learned something this evening.
Apparently widely used, too:
Some of the instances are probably redundant, but I googled it in quotes, so I guess the above number gives a pretty good indication of how common it is.
I think Maoman wrote a Classic Post.[/quote]
I think Maoman almost got it right. The proper phrase is [color=#BF0000]惱[/color]羞成怒 (nao[color=#BF0000]3[/color] xiu1 cheng2 nu4), which means “to be shamed until becoming enraged”. Nothing to do with the brain.
Just doesn’t bother me.
