Conspiring to push the US into war with Iran

Here’s the real obsession driving the ‘war on terror’:

"A few blocks off Pennsylvania Avenue, the FBI’s eight-story Washington field office exudes all the charm of a maximum-security prison. . . On the fourth floor, like a tomb within a tomb, lies the most secret room in the $100 million concrete fortress—out-of-bounds even for special agents without an escort. Here, in the Language Services Section, hundreds of linguists in padded earphones sit elbow-to-elbow in long rows, tapping computer keyboards as they eavesdrop on the phone lines of foreign embassies and other high-priority targets in the nation’s capital.

At the far end of that room, on the morning of February 12th, 2003, a small group of eavesdroppers were listening intently for evidence of a treacherous crime. At the very moment that American forces were massing for an invasion of Iraq, there were indications that a rogue group of senior Pentagon officials were already conspiring to push the United States into another war—this time with Iran. . . ."

:rainbow: how dare you mention the Israeli spies Doug Feith and Larry Franklin! :rainbow:

:smiley:

This is why I despair of ever communicating with some of these people. No wonder Bush has had so much trouble getting people to understand that he wanted to act “before” Iraq become an “immient” threat.

Spook: I have only been screaming, crying and pulling my hair (paints a picture, eh?) for three years about the need to invade or neutralize Iran albeit fully recognizing the huge difficulties in doing so. BUT I and others believe it must be done or there will never be peace in the Middle East.

While your gushing, gotcha article from the Rolling Stones makes for very entertaining reading, it sort of fails to account for this “conspiracy.” I mean none of us who advocates strong action against Iran has been exactly silent on the subject right? So where’s the gush gush oh my God secret Israeli Jewish cabal with CIA and Pentagon cloak and dagger stuff?

Just for the record so that we are absolutely clear:

I SUPPORT STRONG ACTION, INCLUDING MILITARY AGAINST IRAN AND SYRIA. IF WE HAVE TO INVADE, THEN WE HAVE TO INVADE BUT THERE WILL BE NO SOLUTION TO THESE PROBLEMS UNTIL THE MULLAHS ARE GONE. I FULLY RECOGNIZE THAT IT WILL TAKE DECADES TO CLEAN UP THE MESS BUT I THINK STARTING NOW IS BETTER THAN WAITING UNTIL THE PROBLEM IS EVEN WORSE.

Reads like a cheap 50’s paperback…

:bravo:

Just wondering why we are taking so long in Afghanistan? No end in sight, is there? Also, I see we are kept quite busy in Eye Rac, aren’t we? Our allies are beginning to pull out, aren’t they? No matter, why don’t we strectch the ranks a little bit and go for Eye Ran and Syria while we’re at it? Not to forget about Pakistan and Korea. Damn, the world is a terrible place.

Forward Christian soldiers…

I am attempting patience…

We never said that we were going to solve all of Afghanistan’s problems overnight, BUT the Taliban is no longer in power and al Qaeda no longer has a base from which to operate, right?

No, no, no more than there is any end in sight to our commitments to European, East Asian security.

The correct spelling is Iraq. It makes you “sound” ignorant when you spell it like that…

Yes, they have been so instrumental and reliable and committed elsewhere. Strange that they are pulling out so early now unlike, er… um… which country was that again?

Excellent suggestion. I heartily agree. Given that this is a regional war, we may find doing so speeds an end to the troubles in Iraq and elsewhere.

Pakistan will be a problem and it is the one that worries me most but until we get the other problems off the plate, it will have to wait. North Korea? No solution other than containment that I can see, but the parameters are different than with Iran since it is surrounded by strong nations that can interdict any attempts to smuggle nukes or other wmds out to third parties. Best of a bad situation, but no one else has given me a plausible strategy other than containment.

Welcome to the party. Anyway, without the US it would be a far worse place.

This is a fight against Fascism not a religion. You would perhaps be forgetting that Muslims live in many of the nations allied against Islamofascism and that the Iraqis and Afghanis who are fighting the fascists are also Muslim? World is awfully complicated, eh?

[quote]Welcome to the party. Anyway, without the US it would be a far worse place.
[/quote]

Not from my POV. Your strong Christian point of view and your arrogance that what you believe is right is right is what makes the Muslim world rise in unison against the United States. You are not right. Millions of Iraqis say you are not right. The devastation and desolation of my home land tells me you are not right.
You yourself think you are so right just because you are American. I’ve seen many of your posts here - your reasoning and your justification backed up by your exaggerated media and false statistics which bear little resemblance to wghat things a re really like back home.
You dare to sit there in your little comfortable office or at home and tell everybody how your country is justified to invade Iraq and how the people of Iraq are so much better off.
But we resent you so much. Things are worse there now than during any time under the reign of Saddam Hussien and they will be for a very, very long time.

There will NEVER EVER be stability in the Middle East wherever there is American involvement.

Are you taunting? Because this is exactly what it seems like from where I am standing. Where I am standing? In my heart, it is a desolate wasteland, windblown and unliveable place I used to call home.
It was never like this before.

The arrogance is absolutely mind-boggling!

[quote]Also, I see we are kept quite busy in Eye Rac, aren’t we?
The correct spelling is Iraq. It makes you “sound” ignorant when you spell it like that… [/quote]

I took over the pronunciation from Georgie. Are you saying… ? :slight_smile:

[quote]Not from my POV. Your strong Christian point of view and your arrogance that what you believe is right is right is what makes the Muslim world rise in unison against the United States. You are not right. Millions of Iraqis say you are not right. The devastation and desolation of my home land tells me you are not right.
You yourself think you are so right just because you are American. I’ve seen many of your posts here - your reasoning and your justification backed up by your exaggerated media and false statistics which bear little resemblance to wghat things a re really like back home.
You dare to sit there in your little comfortable office or at home and tell everybody how your country is justified to invade Iraq and how the people of Iraq are so much better off. [/quote]

Ditto.

:bravo: :bravo: :notworthy: :notworthy:

Oh really? So when al Qaeda says that its raison d’etre was not the recovery of Palestine but al Andalus (Spain and Portugal along with southern France), how exactly is that American involvement? When it talks about reconquering India, how is that America’s fault? When the bombers in Bali targeted the disco, they did so not because of America but because of Australian efforts to allow independence for East Timor and thus remove it from Muslim rule? So many issues, so little American involvement?

The government of Iraq is elected. Any time the prime minister wants our forces out, then they will leave? Also, strange thing polls, earlier the Sunnis were almost unanimous in wanting US forces out while the Shia wanted them to stay. Now, more and more Sunnis who are being targeted by Shias want us to stay. AND are you suggesting that the violence in Iraq (Sunni vs. Shia) is the fault of America? Was it not there before we arrived on the scene? Is it being caused solely or even primarily because of American involvement?

I have many good memories of Lebanon but you cannot have a force in your nation (Hezbollah) and for better or worse (no fault of the average Lebanese) have it waging war against another nation from your territory and then expect that this nation will not respond. And why is this OUR problem? Most of you do not want American involvement right? So fine. We are staying out this time, isn’t that what you want? Let the UN solve the problem? Get your Arab League to negotiate a ceasefire with Israel but stop screaming at us to get out and then when we do scream at us to get in again. What is it that you want us to do?

Yeah. I have been deluded and brainwashed.

How do you know that they aren’t? You tell me I cannot speak for the Iraqis but you can because you are what? Muslim? Again, poll after poll shows that the Iraqis do not want the violence that is being initiated by Shia death squads, that they want the US troops to help them stop it and that they are glad Saddam is gone. We cannot wave a wand and solve all of Iraq’s problems. What do you say about Teheran’s involvement in Iraq? its funding of such terrorism? its funding and support of Hizbollah? That is okay I suppose?

I get that, but you must understand that many of us resent the constant terrorism, aggression and passive aggressive whining of the Middle East. Your nations are not poor, backward thugocracies because of us. You have yourself to blame for the unenlightened governments that would make a Sicilian mafia look like a democracy in comparison.

Perhaps, but that onus is now on the people of Iraq to solve. We will try to help but ultimately this is a fight that needs to take place in Iraq.

Okay so you do not want us to help. Then fine no aid, no pressure on Israel for a ceasefire. Go to the UN and Arab League or EU and have them deal with the problem. I do not see how this is any of our business and if you want us out and think our involvement is so bad, you can deal with Israel all by yourself. By the way, how’s that working out for you?

The onward Christian soldiers quote is from your friend “Stan” not me. I do not view this as a war between religions or cultures but against violent thugs.

[quote]Because this is exactly what it seems like from where I am standing. Where I am standing? In my heart, it is a desolate wasteland, windblown and unliveable place I used to call home.
It was never like this before.[/quote]

Then you must be very young. As I recall there was a civil war in Lebanon from 1975 to 1990 and where was America in that one? Seems it was sparked by Palestinian refugees. Then, Syria and Iran got involved and voila a real nice civil war. How was that America’s fault? We sent some troops in 1983 to Beirut to try to end the fighting but the barracks was blown up by Hizbollah so we left. Seems that the civil war lasted another 7 years. How was that our fault?

I’m talking aboput Iraq.

That’s Indias business, not yours.

Really? I was certainly under the impression that the Bali bombers made a mistake - theyu were after American tourists according to many media reports and documentaries.

In Iraq, I see involvement. That’s what matters to me.

A psuedo democracy which doesn’t really exist.

Before American involvement, things were alot better. now with the civil war there is absolutely no means of control. How can you leave after you destroy everything and then fail to prevent a civil war?

Your are missing the point. If my country has a civil war then that has nothing to do with you. However, beofre we could get on with our lives and at least have some values of normal day-to-day activity without feeling threatened. Now, it is barely possible to cross the street without being shot at. So yes, before the violence was at least contained to a few groups and didn’t spill out much. Now it is rampant, dangerouse and uncontrolled. All this because of US involvement.

I’m an Iraqi. Get out!

Yes. You have.
Are you calling me a liar. Have you been to my house? Have you seen the devastaion in my homeland? If you have, then my sincere apologies.

[quote]How do you know that they aren’t?
[/quote]

I’m Iraqi.

You most certainly can not speak for the majority of us.

I see you get your information soley from newspapers. Which ones do you read, "The American Good News Daily?’

The polls mean absolutely nothing. We don’t want violence but it has got much worse than before you “invaded.” Life was much simpler then. I don’t know where you get your information from but it is certainly not from the streets of Iraq; the public certainly don’t want US troops stirring things up.

What gives you the right to solve “our” problems?

No, it’s not OK. But then again, it’s none of your business.

AWA,
I’m getting awfully confused. What is it you want us to do?

[quote]How can you leave after you destroy everything and then fail to prevent a civil war?
[/quote]

My mistake. I thought you were talking about Lebanon.

Exactly. But my point is that these groups are out to “reconquer” quite a few places and that this does not stem from any action on the part of the US.

Not according to the actual bombers themselves. The reason was to kill Australians for their role in “freeing” East Timor.

Okay

Care to clarify what you mean by this. It seems to me that the election was held and duly recognized by the UN as fair and legitimate. All of the various parties in the government and Parliament seem to recognize it as well, INCLUDING Sadr!!!

I will assume that you are a Sunni from Baghdad. Many Kurds and Shias however were unhappy and they account for 80 percent of the population right? or is that statistic wrong as well?

You are right. We failed to anticipate the insurgency. What were the alternatives? If you are from Iraq then what do you have to say to the people of Kuwait for the deaths and destruction you caused there? What about the invasion of Iran? What about the missiles sent to Saudi Arabia and Israel?

I am confused. Are you now asking the US forces to stay to help prevent the civil war from getting worse? or do you want us out NOW?

Okay.

Tell that to the 500,000 dead Shias buried in mass graves. Tell that to the victims of Saddam’s rape and torture rooms? Tell that to the million plus dead Iranians. Tell that to the tens of thousands of dead Kurds.

Who do you blame most for this violence? Initially was it not mostly Sunni insurgents? allied with al Qaeda in some cases? and now that the Shias are finally responding (and doing a pretty good job), you are upset? Or am I missing something? You are not blaming these deaths on US forces are you? or are you blaming us for not being able to stop them?

But the death toll from Saddam’s reign was much higher. In the millions. To date, we are looking at 35,000 deaths in Iraq in 3.5 years but the numbers are moving up rapidly and will be far worse if this violence continues.

I will accept that we were the ones that opened Pandora’s Box, but you have to look at the reasons why we invaded. Saddam was trouble. Do you deny that? Given our commitments to Kuwait and otherse in the region, what were we supposed to do?

So you want to leave NOW?

I doubt it. I am very well-read, traveled and capable of critical reading.

I have no idea what this is directed at.

No. But I have seen the destruction that Saddam caused in Kuwait and also in Iran. Anything to say to those people while we are on the subject?

I will visit Iraq one day and I hope that day will come soon. I also hope that Iraq is peaceful, prosperous and a functioning democracy that allows all of its various groups to coexist.

Again, sorry, I assumed incorrectly that you were Lebanese based on the context of the replies.

But what about the other groups in your nation who disagree with you?

Okay. Do you disagree that 90 percent of Iraqis polled (or thereabouts) have stated that they are glad that Saddam is gone?

I disagree.

Yes, I would agree that the visible out of control violence is much worse but the state violence against the citizenry of Iraq was much worse before. Perhaps, you did not know about that?

For Sunni Iraqis, I have no doubt that it was.

So we are the ones doing the killing right now?

Believe me we do not want to be in Iraq. If we could pull our troops out today and not have the place become an even worse, out of control violence plagued nation, I am quite sure that we would love to leave, yesterday would have been better.

Okay so you are saying you want us to leave and pull our forces out. Who then will protect you from the Shia death squads or do you take that responsibility upon yourself. Just want to be clear.

A democracy on the outside. An elected government but not much say from the people. You are quick to quote the UN when it suits you though - an organisation which you distrust and dislike immensely.

You assumed wrong. I am a Kurd.

Not to invade.

[quote]If you are from Iraq then what do you have to say to the people of Kuwait for the deaths and destruction you caused there? What about the invasion of Iran? What about the missiles sent to Saudi Arabia and Israel?
[/quote]

Well, I’m sorry for my countries actions but that is beside the point. The fact is that you attacked Iraq in the second war - but at this time, Iraq was never a threat to the US and it did not have WMD’s.

The civil war is worse after the US attaced Iraq, so if anything can come slightly close to redeeming the US, then sorting out this civil war will do it. However, I think even under the current conditions, we would like to see you out now. Including myself and most of the other kurds I know.

Well now we are getting to the point. 1000’s of dead Kurds?

I lost my daughter in a US bombing raid. She was sitting at home. She was 3.
I also lost my mother in the same raid.

My brother lost a leg and nearly died in a seperate US bombing raid.

I know more Kurds who have died because of US bombing than I know or even know of than who were tortured or captured by Saddam.

I’m blaming the US for wiping out any rule of law or sense of balance which existed before the US led invasion. Yes, the Shias are fighting back, but at a great cost. There was balance before.

A conservative number, considering the death toll is much much higher. You obviously have no idea.

Saddam was trouble - but I have to bear the responsibility for this. My Daughter? My mother?

Yes please.

Perhaps you should come to Iraq and see what your country is really doing. Have you? the middle east will always have problems. The British tried to solve it and gave up. The US is trying it’s best but to no avail. This is how we live. Interfereing on the basis that this is not how you live is not a valid argument to go and invade a country.

Don’t force your ideals on to me or my country. Why do we need to be a democracy because you say so?

Imagine if I had a boil on my foot but lost my leg. Sure, I’d be glad my boil has gone but I’d prefer to have my leg back.

Y[quote]es, I would agree that the visible out of control violence is much worse but the state violence against the citizenry of Iraq was much worse before. Perhaps, you did not know about that? [/quote]

read above.

Read above.

Well then you may as well cut your losses.

The major consensus is that we would prefer to do it ourselves. Things are such a muddle with corrupt, terrorist but US trained police squads with links to terrorist organisations. A terrorist infiltrated govenment, no better than that of Sadam Hussiens - especially if allowed to mature.
Perhaps leaving now and letting us fight for ourselves - like we used to, would be a good idea.

A ‘Kurd’ with a British wanker babe as an avatar.
My BS meter is heading towards the [color=red]red zone.[/color]

I am an engineer in Taiwan. I have studied in France (6 months) Uk (1 years) New York (4 months) and also have worked in New Zealand, kula Lumpur, Thailand and more recently, Taiwan, for already 1.5 years.
I have two passports and the right to remain in both of those countries.

I take my life seriously so no bs here.

My avatar was taken from an online newspaper. do you like it?

(BTW, looks more like NZ in the background :wink: )

Touche on the UN part, but Iraq’s government was duly elected. Everyone including the major parties recognize this.

My mistake. What then do you have to say about the support that nearly all Kurdish leaders have given the US? the encouragement of Kurdish leaders to invade and remove Saddam?

[quote]Not to invade[/quote].

Well, if you are Kurdish, what do you have to say about the very active encouragement and support that nearly all of Kurdish leaders gave the US to invade and remove Saddam once and for all?

Fine. And I am sorry for those of mine, but where does that leave us?

Convenient this.

We have found 500 tons of stockpiles that were supposed to have been destroyed per the ceasefire governing the end of Gulf War I. AND again, it was not up to us to prove that Saddam had wmds. He had to prove that he was in compliance. He never did and so, he is gone…

Now, you want us to stay? I thought you wanted us out today?

Okay.

Then, you and the Kurds that you know had better have a very serious conversation with the leaders who “represent” you since they are the ones most actively encouraging the US forces to stay. Now, perhaps you begin to understand the depth of frustration that we as Americans must deal with. You do not blame your leaders for encouraging American actions and for lobbying us to stay, you blame us. That is not fair.

Yes.

[quote]I lost my daughter in a US bombing raid. She was sitting at home. She was 3.
I also lost my mother in the same raid. [/quote]

I am sorry for your losses, but why is it that you blame only the Americans and not your own Kurdish leaders for encouraging and supporting the very same actions? Without the complicity and active support of the independent (in all but name) Kurdish areas, there would never have been a northern front in the invasion of Iraq. OR are you talking about bombing raids following the overthrow of Saddam?

Again, my condolences and sympathy for your losses. But what are we supposed to do and why are you blaming only us and not those who are fostering and funding the terrorism: Iran and extremist Muslim groups? Saddam gets a pass from you?

Then, I would suggest to you that you may have a very unique view among Kurds. Again, if this is all true, why are the leaders of Iraqi Kurdistan lobbying the US so strenuously first to invade and now to stay? In fact, did you know that the leaders of Iraqi Kurdistan have said to US officials that if we ever have to leave Iraq or when we want to, they want to host permanent US bases on their territory? How do you explain this?

Why are you talking to the US about this? Why not demand that your leaders stop asking us to support their goals and stay to ensure their protection. Tell your Kurdish leaders to stop asking us to stay or get involved on their behalf.

Even agencies that are vociferously anti-Bush put this at 35,000 and rising. It could be nearing 50,000 now.

I do not mean to be insensitive but yes in a way you do. It is not fair, but it was not fair when Iraq invaded Iran or Kuwait. Millions died because of Saddam. In that case, you were lucky. In the second case you were not. We have lost 2,500 soldiers because of the actions of Iraq and Saddam not including those who died during the First Gulf War. Do you think that this means nothing to us? Do you honestly believe that if we had just left Saddam alone, everything would have been all right. The leaders of Iraqi Kurdistan did not and that is why they lobbied the US government so strenuously and still do to stay involved. If anyone should resent anyone, Americans should resent having to help stay to help the Kurds no?

Are you sure? And if you are, please start writing to your leaders and tell them that you want no part of US forces in Iraq or Kurdistan.

Well, if as you say you have always lived with this violence and these problems, why is British or American violence any less acceptable than that of Saddam? the Shia death squads? the Sunni insurgents? the Turkish military?

Seems that while you are obviously not a fan, most Iraqis were willing to risk their lives to vote. Despite your tragic losses, that does not give you the right to take that away from them.

Good point. Touche. But I still have to ask in total confusion why you are so anti-America but you give a pass to the leaders of Iraqi Kurdistan who have been so influential in getting America to do exactly what they wanted. AND this I should point out has come at a great cost to our relations with Turkey, formerly one of our best allies and most loyal friends. We have given that up to a large extent because of the help that we have extended to the leaders of Iraqi Kurdistan at their request. So I am very confused as to why then you are not screaming bloody murder about your leaders?

[quote]The major consensus is that we would prefer to do it ourselves. Things are such a muddle with corrupt, terrorist but US trained police squads with links to terrorist organisations. A terrorist infiltrated govenment, no better than that of Sadam Hussiens - especially if allowed to mature.
Perhaps leaving now and letting us fight for ourselves - like we used to, would be a good idea.[/quote]

So if violence and fighting are the norm, why not let a few more join the party since it seems to be business as usual right? So the invasion of Iraq by the US cannot be blamed for this violence since it has always been there as you say. Your biggest complaint then is that we listened to your leaders and are doing what they want us to do?

Fred, if you’re going to spout gibberish can you least get your gibberish straight? You’re making all Americans look like gullible fools.

500 tons of chemical munitions that were part of an undeclared stockpile that predated the first Gulf War but should have been destroyed per Saddam’s treaty agreements. How’s that?

(Fred, pfft! It was 500 20-year-old rocket and artilery shell rounds containing degraded mustard gas or sarin nerve agent.)

That’s great, Fred. Very authoritative. Keep up the good work. You’re a credit to your country.