Coronavirus Open Thread 2022

That’s fact checking? Damn those fact checker are either stupid or lying on purpose! They counteract a claim about all cause mortality with numbers from dying with covid19.
The only valid counter argument is - split the data into age groups of 10 years - and then compare all cause mortality of vaccinated vs non vaccinated. Sorry but this is so blatant trash by the fact checkers it’s crazy anyone is taking their shit and printing it.

They compare Apples with Oranges. They dodge this by otherwise providing good arguments - namely age adjusted.

So that fact checking is an utmost fail.
We all know more unvaccinated people died from covid than vaccinated. It’s about other reasons to die!

But actually that is what fact checkers love to do. Call something wrong - but actually giving some completely irrelevant numbers to state why it’s wrong.
I want to see some actual fact checking of this number - because I am genuinely interested in this. And please split this up every 2 month with a curve showing when people moved from being unvaccinated to vaccinated. Then we get talking.

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And you cited The Atlantic? Was the ChinaDaily site down?

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I’m new to this debate, but from what I see his first assertion regarding deaths is accurate, but the second assertion that the cause must be vaccinations is disputed. The fact check makes a strong counter argument (the vaccinated skew older), but the ruling of mostly false is not supported by the argument. The question is really unknown at this point. I’d like to see the age-adjusted overall mortality rates so we’re comparing closer groups.

Also, the fact that the vaccinated fare so much better with covid than the unvaccinated actually supports this guys view, as there are a lot of more deaths that need to happen to make the underlying data skew so heavily towards the vaccinated overall death rates.

I’m actually quite sure - that if you take apart those numbers - the difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated by age bracket will be hard to see. Not sure which direction it will skew.

However it would take me 4-5 hours to cut down the data to show this. That the fact checkers chose not to do this - even though someone pays them for this - would actually support the argument - because they deliberately chose not to do it - because likely even with age adjusting the vaccinated died at slightly higher numbers (I guess people with co-morbidities are a little higher vaxxed than those without) so they chose to instead write some well sounding crap and call it mostly false to please their paycheck coming in.

They have a policy, never admit that the vaccination does not bring anything. If that is what is appearing from correct fact checking they don’t get paid so they instead decide to drop the ball.

Case is clear - this group of fact checkers I cannot take serious anymore - whatever they write is political propaganda.
It’s really tough - the majority of people believes some bullshit - be it from some really fake arguments like on day X everyone will die, faked blood samples showing blood coagulating after contact with supposed vaccine, or on the other hand fearmongering and fact checking while not being objective and fabricating numbers about vaccine effectiveness, inevitable lockdowns to supposedly save people, and so on. Both sides are full of rubbish, with the majority side - the vaccinations and lockdowns are the recipe side, sadly beeing supported by most governments worldwide and big money.

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Yeah, so woke to less of a headache but more of a fever, runny nose, dry mouth and one nice hoarsy cough.

Remote teaching from the basement today.

6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Hospital Closures etc

Great reply. I’m not against the vaccines just to be a contrarian. I’ve had 3 of them myself, but as time goes on I think more data about them is coming to light, and there are efforts to suppress it.

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Do you have proof of this?

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Do you think all journalists are supposed to do charity work?

Sorry, I meant it as in Vaccination does not bring what it promised. It clearly cannot stop omicron from infecting you - yet the media scarcely admits this - and asks for boosters (which will also not help you from getting sars-cov2 positive). There is no clear data yet about getting sick for boosters, double vaccinated or unvaccinated - but a huge push for people to booster up.
No science so far says it works - and for whom it works.

I do not think journalists should work for nothing, no they should get paid. But if they claim to be fact checking but instead confusing people with rubbish arguments while they are supposedly fact checking an argument - then that is not journalism but should be labelled paid advertisement - or paid influencer post - because that is what this above “fact checking” article is. It certainly isn’t fact checking. Usually in newspapers opinions have to be labelled as opinions, advertisement has to be labelled as advertisement - neither of which is done here instead blatantly lying and deceiving people (so they can claim - “this is fact checked mate”).

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Common sense and science say more shots will increasingly escalate your body’s response to anything that looks what is in the shots.

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I agree, but I don’t agree that the vaccines we have right now still look similar to the virus. Remember they are based on the spike protein - now exactly at this place we saw many mutations.
So why take the risk of vaccination (still many people get sick for a day or two from the booster - actually the higher the amount of antibodies you have - the higher your chance to have “vaccine effects”, and that is scary. Usually the more your body gets from something - the less you react. Why the heck is it the opposite with mRNA. Astra Zeneca was opposite - the second shot much less of a reaction than the first. mRNA it’s the opposite which is for me highly suspicious. There are loads of other arguments why I don’t trust the vaccines anymore - plus the fact at looking how little my chance of seriously falling sick with omicron is. Dying in a car crash is way more likely for me than dying from Covid. Yet I decided to not worry and accept it.

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You make sweeping statements about vaccines without specifying what you are talking about.
Looks like you are mostly talking about Omicron and ignoring that other variants are still spreading. Just because Omicron is infecting way more many people, does not mean other more dangerous variants just disappeared.
Taiwan did not had a continuous community spread, so we don’t have many recovered with immunity. A spread here will be more severe than in other countries.

They did and do what they were created to do. Omicron is a different variant with better immune evasiveness. Vaccines can be adjusted to have better protection against Omicron, but that takes time. A vaccine that protects against all variants, incl. new future variants, has not been made yet.

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that is what I believe as well - but not what the so called “scientists” are saying. The still insist vaccination is at least equal to previous infection.
I tend not to agree here.

a) in most countries in Europe/USA max around 25% of population was previously infected. It’s likely different for India or Africa or South America where it was higher. So difference in the number of neither vaccinated nor recovered from Taiwan vs that number from western countries is actually quite small.

b)
The vaccine producers claimed it is not needed to adapt the vaccines to Delta - remember that one?
I know they now say they need to adapt for omicron while still claiming it will prevent most hospitalization (without showing convincing data so far at all).
Taiwan didn’t have many boosters yet - but there is no need - because people got vaccinated much more recently. The booster is certainly not working better than a recent full vaccination!

And yeah - it will take so much time to adapt for omicron, that omicron will have ripped through everywhere anyhow already. The vaccine manufacturers are simply too slow. With mass rollout of vaccines - the virus will adapt to circumvent infection protection by vaccines. If only few people are vaccinated vs recovered, the chance are much higher it will circumvent previous infection. What you likely cannot take away (I hope) is the effect of vaccines and previous infection - to get seriously sick on infection. However in the wake of omicron this hardly matters - omicron has been shown to give you good immunity from Delta and other older variants, while at the same time being just a flew for the big majority of the population, for many being fully asymptomatic.

Meanwhile Norway posting record numbers, 25 percent of all tests are positive, talks about easing of measures because hospitals are empty (at minimum 8000 cases a day less than 350 people in hospitals due to covid). Why minimum 8000, that can be assumed due to the high positive Rate. Main consensus is about 4-5x the rate, with some up to 10x.

Or otherwise said, for around 140.000 people getting infected less than 350 end up in hospital!!!
(4000 X 5 (unknown cases) X 7 (average duration of hospital stay with COVID). Now damn kick me in my face but that’s some seriously freigthening flu outbreak there going on. I actually wonder is any flu outbreak is so sneaky to bring so little people to hospital…

The death rate is also tiny, it’s much less than 1 per 1000. If we assume 4x the infection due to not finding out about them then it’s 1 per 4000 or lower (looking back that was the average over the last month more or less of positive tests per day with deaths 3-7 deaths per day)

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On the other hand Finland just opened up another emergency hospital and wait time in the emergency room at Helsinki is currently 45 hours with basically services being overun.

Reason being covid cases taking all the slack out of the system. mind you not ICU covid cases but strong enough were people feel they need to go to hospital. Seems to be a problem especially with kids, hard to stop parents from going to hospital when a child has very high fever.

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That is partly wrong or super misleading, Finland Hospitals were overrun because they did testing and Quarantine requirements caused havoc. Not so much sick people.
452 people are in Hospital with coronavirus all over Finland. That’s nothing much. 57 people in ICU.

Another reason is likely that you build a hospital to better separate patients.

Finland just today relaxed measures and stopped most contact tracing and quarantine.

But yeah of course it doesn’t make sense to treat people for infectious diseases at the same place as other patients, especially due to the danger of superinfection.

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I guess you don’t read Finnish, not much point in following Finnish news with CCP media?

You are right in that contact tracing was dropped because there is not enough people to do it and its basically useless when 40% of tests are positive. Quarantine was dropped to stop people going into hospitals for no reason (you need a doctors note to be officially quarantined, a huge waste or resources) so that is correct. But its also correct that its getting worse and that almost certainly these measures are not enough. More emergency hospitals are being \prepared as the peak is still expected to be 2-3 weeks away. (my family member is involved in this through the red cross)

ICU capacity is not an issue in Finland. Its the somewhat severe cases that could probably stay at home going into the hospitals and filling up the resources. From what I hear from my friend in NY its pretty much the same there.

Here is an English link for some better info if you care Coronavirus latest: 23,000+ new cases over weekend, 600+ patients in hospitals; Helsinki opens reserve Covid hospital; hundreds of cases in Finnish military prompt quarantines

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I just used the first results from Google news with a 24h filter - actually all were non finish. Plus numbers Google showed me.

But yeah a reserve hospital with 50 bed capacity, that should be called a clinic not a hospital, but that’s splitting hairs.

Still those numbers would not warrant Taiwan level 2 or 3 restrictions… and it’s clear, with omicron you have to adapt quarantine and contact tracing because it will cause s chaos. Same would happen if you try that concept with influenza.

Plus let’s see when those numbers really peak, so far in most countries much earlier than experts expected…

And look at numbers for influenza waves in Finland in the past, I’m sure they were bigger. But of course with the media attention and scare /fear for Coronavirus now people will go to hospital much more, with less symptoms than before. If you scare people that way, at least 10 percent will believe it’s the end of the world now, and they would run to get tested/hospital on slight coughing or slight fever. Because they were told to do so for the last 2 years. cannot change people in a few days

Well remember that the Helsinki is 4 times smaller than Taichung. Even the combined population of the greater Helsinki is only about the third of Taichung. Its small.

Finland is tightening up though not loosening. There is a huge discussion going on about closing schools (likely not happening) but restaurants are now forced to shutdown at 6pm and are possible shutdown entirely. Gym’s and exercise places is a funny one, they were shutdown by the municipals governments (the central government cannot actually do it themselves by law). All the owners run into courts and now part of the country the courts allowed a temporary injunction (Gym’s can open until the cases can be heard in a more refined way) but other parts they didn’t. Its a mess.

The hospitals really are full though, I have two cousins who are doctors and it really is bad, not a normal flue season but more sick people that they can handle. Pile up the idiots on top who should not be at the hospital and you end up with the 45 hours lines (record is 60 hours wait at the main hospital in Helsinki right now according to the newspapers) Remember that even in normal times the hospitals are almost at capacity.

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