For some people, it really was. Edit: just realised you were talking about masks.
Yes, they are a pain in the arse.
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The masks are not only an inconvenience but also a physical and mental health hazard.
The vaccinations are fine as long as they are voluntary.
And my two-week delay for surgery was definitely an inconvenience with permanent negative consequences.
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I will not claim that all elderly people in Taiwan could be saved. But a lot more of them would be if they were vaccinated at the same rate as elderly folks in Australia and NZ, which also contended with omicron waves just like we didāwith a vastly lower fatality rate.
Guy
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Why you think this answers my question? And incidentally, it isnāt necessarily true - most countries only started counting ā1 doseā 14 days after injection.
Youāre claiming that people are dying because they didnāt get vaccinated. So show me the calculation of vaccine efficacy. And show me how you have derived the missing data (rate of vaccination in the population being discussed) from alternative sources. As far as Iām aware nobody has published it, but since youāre very confident with your claim, Iām sure youāve made a robust estimate?
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So weāre back to saying: the data in Taiwan is shite, therefore no conclusions can be reached. Glad we settled that.
Guy
No, weāre back to saying afterspivak is making claims that he does not understand are flawed. In this particular case itās not exactly to do with the data being shite. The data isnāt even there.
Any estimate on your part would be fine. Take a guess at the missing number and then show me the vaccine efficacy on that basis.
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We have been through this countless times.
Folks who are unvaccinated (this means zero vaccines, just in case it causes you to stumble into philosophical depths concerning nothingness) are vastly overrepresented every single day in which @MalcolmReynolds meticulously translates and posts the fatality details. Every. Single. Day.
I am aware you think such a consistent, unrelenting trend means nothing. Thatās your right, and yes I am aware that you and your friends post about it nearly nonstop. This doesnāt make the radical skepticism to which you are wedded any more convincing to me.
Guy
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Iām not being skeptical. Iām asking you to justify this claim here with reference to the reported facts. What makes you think āthe unvaccinatedā are āvastly overrepresentedā, and if they are, to what degree are they overrepresented? It would be - to say the least - curious if this were actually the case, since official figures from most other countries put the vaccine efficacy close to zero. I see nothing remarkably different in the CECC spreadsheet.
You just keep repeating that itās somehow obvious, as if weāre all too stupid to see whatās right in front of our faces. Iām asking you to show some actual numbers, some calculations, representing the risk-of-death if (a) unvaccinated and (b) vaccinated. I donāt believe you or anyone else can do this because a crucial piece of information is not there. You could answer my question by taking a guess at that number - or assigning it a range of possible values based on assumptions - and come up with a range of vaccine efficacy figures.
If you canāt produce this (and from your responses so far I honestly donāt think you even understand what Iām asking you) then thereās no reason for anyone to take your handwringing seriously.
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If interested, forumosans can check out this informative and circumspect thread from where I am getting my numbers. Findings from Singapore correlate with what Iāve been saying about vaccination in Taiwan: elderly folks who decided not to vaccinated (or with folks around them who decided no vaccination for them) have not fared well with omicron infections.
Queries and responses to Chaseās numbers can be found here:
Thatās it for me. Forumosans can read Chase Nelsonās position (and the interesting responses to it embedded above) and judge for themselves.
Guy
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For me, effective or not, at least Taiwan didnāt go down the coercive route that many countries went down by demonizing the unvaccinated like in Australia and elsewhere, or vaccine passports to eat at a restaurant to try to force people to get a vaccine. The amount of vitriol the media directed at people like Novak Djokovic probably moved anyone on the fence over to take the shot so as to not be demonized themselves. You can see that in the pathetic booster uptake worldwide now the coercion is over.
Even if the vaccine was effective, which I doubt, it really is the elderly persons decision to do it or not after looking at the risk reward ratio.
k, so basically youāve been merely repeating a claim you read on Twitter, without bothering to check for yourself whether the claim is valid or not.
For nigh on 3 years now, a small minority of people have uncritically picked up on all the propaganda pumped out by authorities, repeated it as fact, and (where they have the power to do so) shut down anybody pointing out that itās either a deliberate lie, substantially wrong, or a misrepresentation of physical reality.
The net result has been a great deal of harm to peopleās health and general wellbeing, and one of the biggest transfers of wealth from the middle classes to the super-rich in human history (much of it traceable - the amount is around $4 trillion). You might think Iām following you around harassing you for amusement value. Iām not. You just happen to be one of the last remaining supporters of ā¦ whatever the AF is going on, and you post prolifically. Somebody has to point out that the claims that youāre making (or repeating, since you donāt seem to be the originator of anything) are just nonsense. You have the right to post whatever you like, of course. But I expect you to argue for its merit, not to just shrug, disavow all knowledge of the subject, and point to a Twitter thread as the fount of wisdom.
Iām going to dissect Chase Nelsonās drivel when I have the time to do so, although I think Iāve done it several times in the past with no impact on your faith in his sainthood. What bothers me here is that if Nelson is what he says he is, then he knows that heās putting out propaganda and deceitful material. I think it more likely that no such person exists and heās a sockpuppet for a journalist or similar torch-bearer.
EDIT: Iām going to add to this as I scan through the Chase Nelson thread and as stuff occurs to me.
The first point to consider is this. Nobody of any standing is claiming what CN claims. Global health authorities are publishing both raw statistics and estimates of vaccine efficacy, and theyāre all stating something around zero except for a certain window post-booster. For many people the efficacy goes negative thereafter.
So on the face of it CN is claiming something absolutely extraordinary, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. He has either discovered something that the authorities have missed, or heās mistaken. I think itās the latter.
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I posted the above back in July.
Coronavirus Taiwan - Specific Developments July-October 2022 - #347 by slawa
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I do not work in a lab and have not claimed to do so.
I do not work in government with direct access to their data, and (surprise!) I have not claimed to do so.
It is astonishing I need to point this out, but there you go. 
There is no need to be rude.
I did not present Dr Nelsonās points as if he were Moses coming down the mountain with some tablets. I presented them to forumosans so they can decide for themselves and think about public policy accordingly.
Guy
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Iām not for mandates, but to play Devilās advocateā¦ if it was 10 a day, that would mean every hundred days a thousand people are savedā¦ which isnāt an insignificant number.
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In a country of 23 million, it is pretty insignificant. 500 odd hospitals in Taiwan so two extra deaths over the next three months for each one. And when you consider that they are not really extra deaths because many of these people might have died of something else this year, it is clear that they are not going to bring down the health service and after two years, they arenāt going to take the vaccine.
My only point is that the numbers are already low, even vaccinating every old person isnāt going to bring it down a lot more. 21 died yesterday but the vaccine wouldnāt have saved all of them.
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Yes you did, and I explained why it was wrong. You then said āhahahahaā, because like statistics man.
Oh, but there is. Rudeness is letting the guy off lightly. These people are complicit in a vast, sprawling crime that would not have been possible without them. And by linking to his stuff as authoritative, youāre perpetuating the problem.
You didnāt. Youāve been repeatedly claiming that cancer patients would still be alive today if only theyād taken the magic elixir, you also claimed that vaccines prevent transmission, and you then referred to CN as the authoritative basis for your claim. If youāre just putting him out there for discussion - which would be fine - thatās a different matter altogether. But itās not what happened here.
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The source is ourworldindata.org
People can decide for themselves who is wrong here.
This is truly well worth watchingā¦ā¦ā¦
55 Mins insight into the truth about Covid Vaccination and Vaccination Management within the UK
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Excellent share. Thank you.
Just finished watching it. Nothing we didnāt know there, really, but itās a good documentary capturing the essential points.
The biggest tragedy is that the people who most need to watch it simply wonāt, and theyāll keep repeating āsafe and effectiveā as pharma, Santa Klaus, the lizard people or whoever-it-is carry on with their bizarre plans for us all.
Iām still intending to post the vaccine effectiveness statistics based on the COVID spreadsheet that the CECC maintains and other official sources that Iāve cobbled together. I made a start on it while I was away and then forgot to bring the file back with me. I doubt the vaccine fanatics will read or understand what Iāve done, but I think itās important to keep pointing out (with hard data to back it up) that the vaccines donāt do what theyāre claimed to do, government officials lied through their teeth, and a lot of unnecessary suffering was the result - and will persist for years if not decades.
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