Coronavirus Vaccine Discussion

The topic of ‘long Covid’ has already been fully dealt with elsewhere.

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Well, this is the whole point. There simply is no clear-cut case to be made, because apart from the (very minimal) decrease in risk-of-death, the information just isn’t there. Saying that getting vaccinated is an obvious thing to do, and if you don’t you must be stupid, isn’t supported by the data … what little data there is.

Who are you referring to? I don’t see anybody here on the anti-vax side saying “vaccines are going to kill everyone!” or misrepresenting the facts about SARS-CoV2. Mostly, we’re just doggedly quoting statistics from the CDC, the ONS, and other official sources. The vaccines seem to me to be classic modern technology: they cause as many problems as they solve. The article about Biden’s speech makes this quite clear: despite a very high vaccine uptake rate in the at-risk groups, COVID is still (supposedly) as rampant as it ever was. It’s almost as if the vaccines are making things worse, isn’t it? :popcorn:

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If you don’t want to listen to @finley, perhaps you can/should listen to this guy. He might know what he’s talking about and says pretty much the same thing.

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Poor old Robert Malone. He’s got the fact-checkers going into a frenzy trying to discredit him. I reckon he needs to change his hairstyle and learn to play bass. People would take him a lot more seriously if he looked like Gandalf.

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EDIT: just watched it all through. Good summary of the potential problems (and the shades of grey concerning vaccine effectiveness). I remember being laughed out of the room when I said back in 2020 that even if a vaccine were produced in a timely manner, it would stop working in six months.

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That’s ridiculous.
It’s just nobody can make a conspiracy theory to pin on their favourite Big Pharma or Government for it so it’s being ignored by you lot.

There’s a dedicated thread on it. Here’s the link.

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The issue I have with “but the government… conspiracy” is that it is not a single government. Heck, aside from how hard it is to all, every country in the world to agree this virus is a problem and vaccines a solution, well:

The Cubans man, they developed their own vaccine

If vaccines are cosmetics to acquire more power, why would they? They already have full power. Ain’t no COVID deniers there.

i like to break things down to a more simple understanding where possible.
my perception of whats what with covid is something like this.

The disease seems to put about 10pct of those infected into the hospital versus about 1 pct of those infected with the normal flu. And of the 10pct who end up in the hospital 5 are in serious condition and require ICU. And roughly 50pct of those people who require ICU end up DEAD. So say 2 to 3 people out of a 100 who get covid die of it. Versus about 2 to 3 people in a thousand who get the flu dying. So covid is 10 times more dangerous. And because like the normal flu is constantly evolving we (the world) are worried we could get a more virulent form that has a higher kill ratio.

The 5 who recover from covid some have lasting damage to their hearts or lungs that are going to be a lifelong thing and could shorten their lives.

Case in point a person I met who got covid and recovered but now has trouble breathing and has to carry around a small oxygen tank to help him and has to be on oxygen at home. His lifestyle is SEVERELY impacted by having had covid and he will most likely die earlier than if he had not gotten covid.

So the threat is real. Even though 90pct of the people who are infected come out pretty much OK, and even without any life long damage that we can see . There may be a few that have heart or lung damage yet to surface.

I dont think covid will shut the world down the way it has if it wasn’t a true concern. It is NOT a world wide conspiracy because so far on this planet all the countries are not able to agree on things like they have done with this disease. The disease is real.

The vaccine is fairly hastily as vaccines go cobbled together. But not from shots in the dark but rather from research gained from years of study . It is not made from a concept just conceived yesterday.

However, there is is a bit (quite a bit) OF UNKNOWN. The “we are not sure as yet what we should fear” category, which is perhaps the worst kind of fear. NOt knowing what exactly we should fear but having the gnawing sensation that there is a fear.

It is not just “an adverse” reaction that is fearsome. It is the very real probability that some have died as a direct result of having taken the vaccine. For those people they may have NOT gotten covid at all and been still alive without the vaccine. However, there is a good chance that those people who died because of the vaccine would have died if they actually got covid. There is a good chance that may have been the case.

Weighing the odds myself I do think that for the majority of people getting the vaccine makes sense.
Provided of course that some yet unknown problem doesnt present itself from the use of this never tried on a large scale type of vaccine.

Could it turn out that the world should have let covid run rampant and kill off who it may and then the world is rid of it when every achieves herd immunity or we are right to do what we have done and put many businesses out of business and caused quite a lot of stress for so many. But in the end we have saved perhaps millions.

I think we are doing what we needed to do. I dont think we could in this modern age stand by and let covid kill say 100 million people like the 1918 flu did. Some say this one is not as virulent and that may be true but look at the world population in 1918 and 100 million died (out of an estimated 1.8 billion people) meaning about 5.5pct . Given todays population of say 8 billion that would have translated to 440 million deaths across the planet. Covid caused perhaps less than 5 million deaths means a success for mankind.

  • Statistics

Statistics

New cases and deaths

From Wikipedia · Last updated: 6 days ago

Deaths

[image]

Worldwide

All time

Jul 1, 2021

Deaths: 8,997

7-day avg: 7,964

Deaths7-day average

Each day shows deaths reported since the previous day·

About this data

Cases

From Wikipedia and

others

· Last updated: 3 hours ago

Total

[image]

Worldwide

Cases

219M

Deaths

4.55M

I don’t think it’s a conspiracy at all. Conspiracy denotes secretive. I have no problem finding information that doesn’t follow what has been given to us.

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This is true as far as it goes, but you need to put that into the context of all the other risks you face - and you need to consider your risk as an individual rather than the average risks. Unlike with flu, which infects people at random, COVID risk varies dramatically depending on who you are.

Only if pressure is put onto the virus to evolve in that direction. Natural selection pressure is away from that direction.

Of course the disease is real. But saying “why on earth would they do that?” is a weak counterargument. Governments have done far worse things on far more flimsy excuses. Historically speaking, most oppression has been based on superstition and faulty logic, not dire need.

They want you to believe this, and most people prefer to believe it, because the alternative is intolerably painful: that we (collectively) have hurt hundreds of millions of people for no reason whatsoever. We all bear responsibility for this. We didn’t say “enough”, and we didn’t say it sooner. Now it’s probably too late.

This could not have happened - COVID targets the old and the sick and there simply aren’t enough potential victims (although government have made a concerted effort to create a massive new wave of poverty in order to fan the flames).

Apart from anything else, COVID has run rampant. Despite the theater, it has been completely uncontrolled. Something like 94% of the British population have antibodies, only about 60% of them via vaccination. The implication is that everyone has already been exposed.

The big fallacy here is that you can control a virus by hurting people.

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Your argument seems to be “there isn’t a conspiracy, therefore none of the bad stuff is actually happening”.

Totalitarian governments exist in a precarious position. They have to maintain an endless crisis in order to keep people compliant; if people see any way to circumvent or escape the State, they will take it. Manufactured crises are the bread-and-butter of any dictatorship. COVID was merely another plausible opportunity to maintain the status quo.

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all the stay at home stuff is to allow a vaccine to be developed that will allow fewer people to be sick at any one time so that the hospitals can handle the inflow.
i think we have been fairly successful so far

that has been most govt’s MO

so far finley appears to believe the efforts against the virus have been in vain and in valid, and the govts are using covid to retain power, the vaccine is a joke … what else, did i miss anything :slight_smile:

in a nutshell could good ol finley be suggesting that we the world should have just let the virus run its course as it may…kill who it may kill…develop as it will and we should all have carried on carrying on just the way we were , no restrictions of any kind…no vaccine need to be produced…in other words…just let it do what it must do as it may…

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What makes you think that?

We’ve now incurred (globally) nearly $20 trillion worth of debt worldwide. At actuarial rates, one life-year is worth about US$50,000. So in theory we must have saved 400 million life-years. Do you think we have?

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as far as society as it is today in california…other places i dont know…taiwan seems to have things under control. indonesia was workable according to my wife. …no riots and machine guns in the streets and no streets lined with dead…so i guess there are places that are managing.

money is relative. it can all get to a point where dozens of zeros are chopped off and simply forgotten and debts erased by fiat.

No, money is not relative. Every $ represents the sweat of somebody’s brow. You can’t just inflate away that many zeros without serious repercussions … although they’ll probably try. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

In the UK, there’s now a new tax to pay for the consequences of lockdowns: the average earner will pay an extra 400 pounds a year to service the debt. Not to repay the debt, mind: just to cover the cost of capital. Future generations are going to carry that burden for a long time to come.

If a life-year is worth 30,000 pounds, then 400 pounds is 1/75th of a life-year. 30m taxpayers will be ‘donating’ 400,000 life-years, every year, for many years to come. So was it worth it? Was it a fair tradeoff?

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Its not going to be worked that way. The USA has over 12 trillion bucks of debt, its not going to EVER pay it off.
The world of finance has changed, the way money works will change. the valuation will change.

the world has changed.

But the question remains: was it worth it?

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the world will default on itself and money will be revalued.

That’s entirely possible. And the crisis that follows that default will be something to behold.

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