Corporal punishment banned

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6215949.stm

about time too… But who else believes that the “some” teachers mentioned in the article are not gonna change their ways because its now law?

Funny, before I even arrived here my school told me that corporal punishment was illegal and not to be used ever here. How does it work that something which actually isn’t illegal (for a change) is not allowed? :ponder:

I had also been under the impression that it was illegal all the while. Some of the students’ parents actually insisted that the teachers hit the students! Does this mean it’s been legal until now?

2nd day on the job after having a rough 1st day I decided to have a talk with the boss…

Me: The kids are out of control. They don’t listen, don’t want to listen, and are uncontrollable. Any suggestions?

Boss: You can discipline the students, but don’t hit them…that is the Chinese teachers job.

Me: :astonished:

3rd day on the job…

Boss gave me a sit-in Chinese teacher to observe. Kids were better because they knew that the Chinese teacher would use physical punishment. However, one little bugger was brave enough to test the waters. He interrupted the class by whacking his classmate on the head with his book (for what reason, I haven’t the slightest…). 2 seconds latter he was whacked on the back side of his hand 3 times by the Chinese teacher (her weapon of choice: a wood ruler). Did it work? Nope. He still is a little terror to this very day.

I have since adopted my own form of punishment for misbehaving students. Here they are in all their glorious failure…

Verbal warning with use of the students name
Failed. Doesn’t phase them at all. Other students will mock that student or insist that his name is poopoo head, etc

Seating him/her at a different location (alone) in the classroom
Failed. Works for about 1 minute. Then the offending student usually wanders around the classroom being a goofball or try’s to sneak his/her way back to their original seat…some times flinging erasers at other students to draw attention.

The silent glare
Failed. Thought I was on to something here, only to be disappointed. It works sometimes, but eats valuable class time…the students realize after about 5 minutes that the teacher isn’t saying anything and glaring at the offenders. They get quiet and start to glare at the offenders too. Things look good…then I open my mouth to continue with the lesson and the misbehaving begins again.

Having the student write on the white board (during class) 50 times “I will…” or “I won’t…”
Failed. It shuts up the student that is misbehaving for a while, however that student ends up getting zero from the class lesson. Other students taunt him or her or even attempt to correct bad writing or spelling mistakes while I am attempting to carry on with the class.

Pulling the student aside and having a one on one talk
Failed. The student knows he or she is in trouble and sulks during the one minute lecture. Usually returns to their seat and behaves for about 5 minutes before returning to mischief again. Problem is that while I am lecturing the misbehaving student, the rest of the students decide its time to misbehave.

So IMHO, a ruler wielding Chinese teacher is a good deterrent …perhaps not the best choice in a perfect world…but what else can you do?

[quote=“Quarters”]2nd day on the job after having a rough 1st day I decided to have a talk with the boss…

Me: The kids are out of control. They don’t listen, don’t want to listen, and are uncontrolable. Any suggestions?

Boss: You can discipline the students, but don’t hit them…that is the chinese teachers job.

Me: :astonished:

3rd day on the job…

Boss gave me a sit-in chinese teacher to observe. Kids were better because they knew that the chinese teacher would use physical punishment. However, one little bugger was brave enough to test the waters. He interupted the class by whacking his classmate on the head with his book (for what reason, I havent the slightest…). 2 seconds latter he was whacked on the back side of his hand 3 times by the chinese teacher (her weapon of choise: a wood ruler). Did it work? Nope. He still is a little terror to this very day.

I have since adopted my own form of punishment for misbehaving students. Here they are in all their glorius failure…

Verbal warning with use of the students name
Failed. Doesnt phase them at all. Other students will mock that student or insist that his name is poopoo head, etc

Seating him/her at a different location (alone) in the classroom
Failed. Works for about 1 minute. Then the offending student usually wanders around the classroom being a goodball or try’s to sneak his/her way back to their original seat…some times flinging erasers at othe rstudents to draw attention.

The silent glare
Failed. Thought I was on to something here, only to be dissapointed. It works sometimes, but eats valuable class time…the students realize after about 5 minutes that the teacher isnts saying anything and glaring at the offenders. They get quiet and start to glare at the offenders too. Things look good…then I open my mouth to continue with the lesson and the misbehaving begins again.

Having the student write on the white board (during class) 50 times “I will…” or “I won’t…”
Failed. It shuts up the student that is misbehaving for a while, however that student ends up getting zero from the class lesson. Other students taunt him or her or even attempt to correct bad writing or spelling mistakes while I am attempting to carry on with the class.

Pulling the student aside and having a one on one talk
Failed. The student knows he or she is in trouble and sulks during the one minute lecture. Usually returns to their seat and behaves for about 5 minutes before returning to mischief again. Problem is that while I am lecturing the misbehaving student, the rest of the students decide its time to misbehave themselves.

So IMHO, a ruler wielding chinese teacher is a good deterent …perhaps not the best choice in a perfect world…but what else can you do?[/quote]

New tricks…

  1. Positive praise for those doing the ‘right thing.’ Instead of focussing on the negative behaviour.
  2. End of class reward for those behaved well. Give naughty students the chance for redemption, don’t let them think they have screwed up ‘too early.’
  3. Talk to parents about persistent errors. Point out that child isn’t learning as quickly as other children due to their lower attention spans. Let the parents do the whacking. Do this away from the eyes of other students/ parents.
  4. Have a clear warning system. Don’t chop and change punishment strategies.
  5. Be the role model. Don’t clown about in class.

[quote] TomHill:

New tricks…

  1. Positive praise for those doing the ‘right thing.’ Instead of focussing on the negative behaviour.
  2. End of class reward for those behaved well. Give naughty students the chance for redemption, don’t let them think they have screwed up ‘too early.’
  3. Talk to parents about persistent errors. Point out that child isn’t learning as quickly as other children due to their lower attention spans. Let the parents do the whacking. Do this away from the eyes of other students/ parents.
  4. Have a clear warning system. Don’t chop and change punishment strategies.
  5. Be the role model. Don’t clown about in class.[/quote]

#1: Tried it. Works great for the behaving students, they keep behaving! But, the misbehaving kids don’t seem to give a shit

#2: Tried it. Result: The studenst that didnt get a “reward” were crying! We are talking 7 to 13 year olds…crying over a stupid little pice of candy. One parent complained to the boss that their little darling didnt get anything. I explained to the boss why, and the boss said to eliminate candy rewards altogether.

#3: I will give this one a try. So far it has been me talking to the boss and the boss saying they will take it up with the parents. But I am beginning to get a clear view of the big picture…its about the money, not the kids nd not tehir education. So, pissing off or upsetting the parents with an enlightenment as to the negative actions of their perfect child seems to be out of the picture.

#4: I will try this too. I believe you are right here.

#5: Never will forget what the boss said: What are you doing? You are trying to teach them? Don’t teach them, that is the chinese teacher’s job…you should play with them and make them think English is fun! Tom, I want to be a good teacher not a wai gou ren circus clown so I definately agree with you here, but all these schools seem to want an entertainer and not a teacher. I am beginning my search for older students and adults.

[quote=“TomHill”]New tricks…

  1. Positive praise for those doing the ‘right thing.’ Instead of focussing on the negative behaviour.
  2. End of class reward for those behaved well. Give naughty students the chance for redemption, don’t let them think they have screwed up ‘too early.’
  3. Talk to parents about persistent errors. Point out that child isn’t learning as quickly as other children due to their lower attention spans. Let the parents do the whacking. Do this away from the eyes of other students/ parents.
  4. Have a clear warning system. Don’t chop and change punishment strategies.
  5. Be the role model. Don’t clown about in class.[/quote]These are great tips, though regarding no.3 I always hope parents won’t do much “whacking”. This is one of several reasons that I do my best to sort things out by talking to the kid him/herself before going to the next step of informing parents of persistent problems.

I’d like to recommend a book on classroom discipline. Unlike some books, it doesn’t attempt to lock you into one magic method of discipline. Instead, it gives good basic principles and a variety of options and suggestions for implementing these. And it’s not written by some ivory-cloistered academic, but by someone with a lot of experience of the day in day out grind of state school teaching in Britain.

It’s by Sue Cowley and it’s called “Getting the Buggers to Behave” (the title is IRONIC, for anyone about to get on his/her high horse).
amazon.com/Getting-Buggers-B … 826489125/

TomHill’s 3 & 4 are especially good.

Also, YOUR presence is a key factor here. That comes with experience.

[quote=“irishstu”]TomHill’s 3 & 4 are especially good.

Also, YOUR presence is a key factor here. That comes with experience.[/quote]

Irishstu,

I agree with you as well. Seems these kids are testing the water with the “new” teacher. The longer I stay and don’t walk out on them - being a consistent figure in their week, perhaps the more they will behave.

But, I’ll be damned if I’m going to stick around for more than 5 months of their hooliganism, poking the teacher in the ass with a pencil, playing dead on the floor, pretending to have spasms, eraser accosting, book slapping, name calling, running around like madness, flashing the teacher, refusing to do any class work, sleeping in class, flat out ignoring the teacher actions!

(all of the above have actually occurred, are occurring, and probably will continue to occur)

I HATE it, absolutely makes my skin crawl when a Chinese teacher enters the room and the kids are all magically quiet, behaving, ready to be educated little angels…but the minute the Chinese teacher leaves, its back to “lets torture the English foreign teacher!”

The reason why these Chinese teachers wield such power over the kids is because they use corporal punishment and the kids fear them. That has been my observation and my good students have told me so when I asked them for the reason as to why they behave around a Chinese teacher and not a foreign teacher.

My co-Chinese teachers have all told me that they think I am too nice, too soft on the kids. The kids don’t “fear” me enough. Damn it! I am not a monster, not a figure of fear, nor do I want to be. Things have been run on corporal punishment for many years in Taiwan and it seemed to work for the majority. Now that corporal punishment is being taken out of the picture, I wonder how many Chinese teachers will no longer be feared and will beginning to have the headaches we foreign teachers have.

[quote=“Quarters”]

#3: I will give this one a try. So far it has been me talking to the boss and the boss saying they will take it up with the parents. But I am beginning to get a clear view of the big picture…its about the money, not the kids and not their education. So, pissing off or upsetting the parents with an enlightenment as to the negative actions of their perfect child seems to be out of the picture.

#5: Never will forget what the boss said: What are you doing? You are trying to teach them? Don’t teach them, that is the chinese teacher’s job…you should play with them and make them think English is fun! Tom, I want to be a good teacher not a wai gou ren circus clown so I definately agree with you here, but all these schools seem to want an entertainer and not a teacher. I am beginning my search for older students and adults.[/quote]

Ok, its never about the education. In Buxiban it’s about student retention. At public/ private school it’s about grades. With adults it’s about keeping them awake.

If you find a job with adults you will quickly learn that they too want a clown. It’s worse with adults. Ask ‘twmc.’

You must project the image of ‘informative educator,’ don’t talk to parents and say ‘your child is a sh*t,’ tell them, ‘I’m concerned that they aren’t learning as quickly. How do you get them to behave at home please?’ If your job is to ‘have fun’ then focus the fun around a learning activity. I’m sure you do this already though. Make the learning the most important thing. Tell them about something ‘you’ are learning. Don’t fear the parents. When you let one child be a little turd it sends a bad message to the well behaved kids.
Also, set the bounadries before an activity. ‘This is ok, this is not ok. If you do the not OK things, then this will happen…’ (Punishment can be a small cleaning activity. The parents won’t mind, as it prepares them for the punishments at Junior High.)
Candy as a reward… I’d go for a sticker, or maybe another smiley face on a ‘chart.’ When they fill their chart they get to choose the next ‘story book’ or something equally mundane that the kids think is super important.

Other ideas…

  1. ‘Planned ignoring’ is also a good tactic.
  2. Tell the child you see what they are doing, and that you will give them a chance to ‘turn things round.’
  3. Ask them to sit between two well behave children.
  4. Take away their chair. Make them either stand or sit on the floor until they can behave.

[quote=“TomHill”]
Ok, its never about the education. In Buxiban it’s about student retention. At public/ private school it’s about grades. With adults it’s about keeping them awake.

If you find a job with adults you will quickly learn that they too want a clown. It’s worse with adults. Ask ‘twmc.’

You must project the image of ‘informative educator,’ don’t talk to parents and say ‘your child is a sh*t,’ tell them, ‘I’m concerned that they aren’t learning as quickly. How do you get them to behave at home please?’ [color=darkred]If your job is to ‘have fun’ then focus the fun around a learning activity. I’m sure you do this already though. Make the learning the most important thing. Tell them about something ‘you’ are learning. Don’t fear the parents. When you let one child be a little turd it sends a bad message to the well behaved kids.
Also, set the boundaries before an activity. ‘This is ok, this is not ok. If you do the not OK things, then this will happen…’ (Punishment can be a small cleaning activity. The parents won’t mind, as it prepares them for the punishments at Junior High.)
Candy as a reward… I’d go for a sticker, or maybe another smiley face on a ‘chart.’ When they fill their chart they get to choose the next ‘story book’ or something equally mundane that the kids think is super important.

Other ideas…

  1. ‘Planned ignoring’ is also a good tactic.
  2. Tell the child you see what they are doing, and that you will give them a chance to ‘turn things round.’
  3. Ask them to sit between two well behave children.
  4. Take away their chair. Make them either stand or sit on the floor until they can behave[/color].[/quote]

Thanks Tom. As always, your advice is sound advice.

My problem stems from poorly placed students and lack of lesson plans. The “bad” students are certainly not the majority. They tend to be the younger or older students of the class. For reasons of profit, the classes are filled to the max with students that don’t match in age or learning level. One particular class has 20 students ranging from 7 years old to 11 years old! Why on earth would they place these kids together with such a huge age gap? The answer is profit. Stick ‘em in an English class and take the money.

I alerted my boss to this problem. Told the boss that it is unfair to the students…they are not on an even level. I named one student in particular that doesn’t speak even one word of English and is an absolute terror. The boss’s response was that the parents specifically requested he be put in an English class with older kids and a foreign teacher to help him “learn” and to help his “mental condition”. :astonished:

You mean he is mentally ill? Sick? ADD? What exactly do you mean? My boss said that they realize this child is trouble and to just do my best to control him and to win his interest.
This is just 1 kid out of 80 different students that I teach. Out of those 80, I would say that 30% are placed poorly and don’t match according to age or learning level. I want to re-arrange the class accordingly, but have been denied.

The other large problem is that I have no idea what the curriculum for the day will be until after I arrive that day! I have asked my co-Chinese teachers to provide me with a weekly syllabus, but they say they are too busy or don’t know where they will be in the book when I arrive for class each week. Madness! :loco:

I took the job because I was referred by a friend, and the boss was his University classmate. The boss set me up with a demo full of perfect kids, but on my first day of actual teaching, they were not the same kids. I am beginning to look for another job somewhere else. There must be greener grass out there.

Should I forward you my 10-page document of classroom behavior, expectations, guidelines, and procedures as followed in my class?

My school has a point system in place (as you may have read). I give the maximum points possible. But they don’t earn them if they forget anything - books, homework, reading assignments, pencils, erasers, and communication books. In addition to that, they have to use their previous points to purchase the missing materials from me. In a class that gets 8 points (4 per hour is the rule of thumb), a photocopied page from one of the books costs them 10 points (per page…we usually cover 2-3 pages a day in the textbook and another 2-3 pages in the workbook), a pencil costs them 15-20 points (purchased from the reward cabinet), and a photocopy of the communication/homework book page costs them 15 points.

In other words, if they forget anything, it takes at least 2 more class sessions to get back what they had before.

Eight points is what they get for showing up and doing their job. I don’t “take away” points any more. Just like a real job.

This is the cut and pasted page of my behavior contract…

[quote]Each student in _______'s class is expected to adhere to the following rules in order to maintain a productive, communicative learning environment where everyone feels safe and respected, both inside and outside of the classroom:

  1. Listen to and follow directions carefully.
  2. Treat yourself, others, and all property with respect.
  3. Stay on task to avoid disrupting others.
  4. Come to class on time, prepared for the day.
  5. Use classroom appropriate language. This includes speaking only English both in and out of the classroom while under ______ 's supervision.

The consequences for classroom behavior include, but are not limited to, the following:

Positive consequences

· Verbal praise from the teacher, staff, classmates, and other people around the school
· A check placed in the positive aspects of your daily communication book
· Comment written in daily communication book
· A note written to parents about your behavior
· A phone call home to parents about your behavior
· Special activities, such as language games or classroom parties
· Special privileges, such as leadership roles in class or homework passes

Negative consequences

· Verbal reminder of classroom rules and expectations
· A check placed in the negative aspects of your daily communication book
· Comment written in daily communication book
· A note written to parents about your behavior
· A phone call home to parents about your behavior
· A behavior management plan to be written and agreed upon between student and teacher
· Loss of privileges and activities
· Conference scheduled with student, teacher, and parents to discuss behavior and plan for behavior management
· Fixing, cleaning, repairing, or replacing any damaged property[/quote]

I go over this with them and make each student sign it. Then I photocopy it and send it home in an envelope to their parents to keep for a record so they can’t say “I didn’t know”.

The procedures is the remaining 8 pages. It includes things such as the importance of a positive attitude and how to be a good listener and speaker. It mostly consists of how to enter and exit the classroom, how to head a paper, how to initiate the first task independently, how to answer questions (written and spoken), and even how to wash your hands correctly (I got fed up with wet doorknobs). Again, so no one can say, “But I didn’t know.”

Excessive? Perhaps. But I can easily say I have the best behaved class in the school and the only one that speaks English the entire time they are in class. They know what’s expected of them and what to expect from me and what to expect if they don’t follow a rule. I also have lots of fun with them and we crack each other up.

As I told my former boss (as she sobbed), expectations equal results. No expectations get no results. High expectations get high results.

Differentiate your lessons. Have acheivable outcomes for each student. Then they are succeeding ‘in their eyes.’ Make fun and colourful worksheets. Have the worksheets graded according to difficulty. Everyone can achieve something. Circumvent the fact that you dont know what you will be teaching by taking in your own activities. Tell the boss that it is ridiculous to walk into the classroom ‘cold.’

I like Imani’s behaviour contract. You could equally draw up a contract with the students themselves. Then write it out on big paper and have them all sign it. Make sure it is positively worded.

Have ‘special’ games that they can only play as a class, that they can only play with you, and can only play when they all behave well. Kids love: Duck duck goose. ‘Stuck in the mud’ Group by numbers (kids walk about room without touching each other, you shout a number, and they must silently get into a group of that size.),
where is the pen? (kids sit in circle with hands behind backs, one student is in the middle, the pen is slowly passed around the outside of the cirlce, the student in the middle has 2 chances to guess who is holding the pen.) Look for ‘drama warm-up activities’ on the net. Make sure theay are A) fun, B) whole class C) not too heavily language based.)

This means you can have fun that is structured, and you control the fun. Make games short and punchy and have them between ‘work periods.’ Move from teacher to student activities into student to student activities as the lesson develops. Then you can take the time to observe them and be more acquianted with their individual needs.

Yes. If kids say, “Don’t speak Chinese!” I tell them that it’s fine and well, but what should he speak? Swahili? If they say, “No running in the halls!” I say, “Okay, you can crawl.” They’ve learned to take on my humor and remember my mantra, “Don’t say don’t. Do say do.” and that it’s “Speak English” and “Walk in the halls”.

They are also not allowed to say “be quiet.” Whoever came up with that phrase should be shot. They got five minutes of being in class and shouting it to each other ( :fume: ) before I taught them a much more efficient way to get silence: a thumbs-up above the shoulder. The reaction time is less than 3 seconds in medium noise and 7 seconds in a very noisy room. I don’t say a word. I just stick my thumb up in the air.

I didn’t intend for this thread to sway from the OP’s topic, but thanks for the help you guys!

My only other stupor of thought is…how do you convey all these rules, contracts, games, etc to your students if they can’t understand you? Are you expressing, writing, saying all these things in Chinese…Chinese/English…English only…or having a co-teacher translate for you?

When the students revert to mandarin and start talking to each other (over the teacher trying to teach) how do you successfully regain control of the class? Are your classes 100% English? Do you allow the students to chatter in Chinese?

I have games that the kids love. They love the “one one” game. Group of students sit in a circle. Kids are counted off…one, two, three, etc.

Teacher is always number one. Teacher starts by slapping knees two times and clapping two times starting a rhythm. Once all the kids are repeating the same rhythm the teacher then says (on the 2 knee slaps) one one (his own number) and then on the claps says a random students number like: three three. Number three student then has to say “three three” and another students number…and so on. You can’t break the rhythm, or mess up the coordination between number calling and knee slapping / hand clapping. If you mess up, you are “out”. The person’s number that is “out” can no longer be called. And the game continues until you are down to two people. Those two people play paper rock scissors to determine the winner.

I usually lose on purpose early in the game so I can “supervise” and the kids get a kick out of it when the teacher messes up.

This is about the only successful game I have had. I have tried others and the kids moan and say they don’t want to. They complain that most the games are too childish…

My boss caught me playing one one with them in the middle of the class and gave me a strange look. After class I asked if anything was wrong and my boss said that games are fine but to incorporate English in to it, specifically the lesson for the day (vocabulary, etc.)

I about boiled over. WTF! :noway: :loco: You said have fun with the kids! I don’t play the entire time, only as a reward for good behavior or if we have extra time at the end of class.

[quote]
When the students revert to Mandarin and start talking to each other (over the teacher trying to teach) how do you successfully regain control of the class? Are your classes 100% English? Do you allow the students to chatter in Chinese? [/quote]

I stop talking and look at the offending parties. I say ‘thank you’ to the quiet ones. I put my finger on my lips and keep staring at the talkers. When I resume teaching I drop their names into my sentences so thay they know I am 'on them. “So, when, James, we do blah blah blah…”

Try the games I suggested above…

[quote]My boss caught me playing one one with them in the middle of the class and gave me a strange look. After class I asked if anything was wrong and my boss said that games are fine but to incorporate English in to it, specifically the lesson for the day (vocabulary, etc.)

I about boiled over. WTF! :noway: :loco: You said have fun with the kids! I don’t play the entire time, only as a reward for good behavior or if we have extra time at the end of class.[/quote]

Show your boss a lesson plan or something. Make one up. Blind them with educational babble.

You guys seem to miss a major point here. Kids in your class misbehave only because they don’t understand what they are learning.
No amount of “punishement” will ever remedy this, no amount of threat will remedy this either.
You need to find out the underlying misunderstoods and start from there.
Also keep in mind that most of the kids don’t have a proper night sleep and/or proper nutritions, which doesn’t help at all.

cattle prod.

restraint chairs.

guard dogs.

or just start the class off with a demonstration of whip cracking: crack a long stock whip over your head a few times, smash a few bottles with the tip, show them it can reach all the way to the last desk, and then leave it in plain view during the (remarkably quiet) class… .

geez, you guys are soft.

I don’t give the full out rules to my youngest students of course, but for my students grade 4 and up I do.

For my younger kids, I have a simpler system and it’s accompanied with pictures (microsoft clip art gets better and better). I prefer microsoft clip art’s style 647 for their kid pictures. For the young kids, they have similar rules… Keep your hands and feet to yourself (picture of two kids fighting). Treat yourself and others with respect (boy giving a girl a box of chocolates). Come to class with all of your things (boy with a wagon full of books). Raise your hand to be called on (picture of a girl sitting Indian style with her hand raised). Always do your best (a picture of a boy with a blue ribbon).

The most important thing about rules and procedures is to not just tell them, but to also demonstrate and drill them on how to follow through. If you want them to come into class quietly and shake your hand, you line them up outside the door and make them do this until they get it right. Then you test them on it right before they leave and review it when they come in. Show them how you want them to head their papers by doing an example on the board (on A3 paper) then have them do the same on their own. Show them how to wash their hands properly and then have them line up and show you one by one. Okay, not really. Kids are pretty good police for each other when it comes to hand washing if you emphasize that not washing your hands well is dirty and makes you have bad germs on your hands.

It’s just modified TPR really.

You could try writing “Time Wasted: 0 min” on the board when they start goofing around. Don’t say anything, and then each minute increase the count on the board by 1 min. Do this until they are quiet.

When class ends, make them sit quitly and proceeded to waste a full 6 minutes of their time. Next class, to make them quiet down, just write “time wasted: 0 min” on the board. They should self police each other since they don’t want their own time wasted. If not, increase the count each minute.

Good luck. Hope this helps.