CPI, Kymco, SYM, Hartford, etc

Morning all,

Forgive my ignorance, I’m a new poster on here!

Yes I’ve searched the forums and read a lot of the other posts on here regarding bikes here in Taiwan.

My interest is in locally produced bikes ONLY. I’ve gone through so many discussions on here that talk/ask about local bikes, only to be diverted onto imported motorcycles! It’s very frustrating!

Here’s the deal.

Local bikes only! eg, made in Taiwan FOR Taiwan!

No Scooters!

Engine size above 150cc.

Preference to buy new! I know I can get it cheaper second hand, the reason I want new is due to the ease of locating it. ie second hand means trawling through Ruten or Ocar.

Current bike is an SYM wolf 125, bought nearly new and runs fine, but I’d like to upgrade while I can still sell it for something and not have to leave it burning in a ditch somewhere.

From reading other posts, there are basically 4 Local companies making bikes.

  1. CPI
  2. Kymco
  3. SYM
  4. Hartford.

My take on each…

  1. CPI. Everyone seems to badmouth them, but they never give a reason why, or backup with any evidence…
  2. Kymco. Mixed review depending on the model, one of the ‘big2’.
  3. SYM. As with kymco, mixed reviews, the other of the ‘big2’.
  4. Hartford. The young upstart thats ruffling feathers, good and bad.

My knowledge of their models.

  1. CPI- Zero, never seen one on the street, wouldn’t know one if I did. Google provides a homepage, little else! Your opinions please!
  2. Kymco- a. 250cc Vennox, if you want a cruiser, your only choice, cheaper to buy in the states than here, fat and underpowered, too big
    for city use and parking (sat on one in a dealership).
    b. 150cc Quannon, old design wrapping even older engineering, from what other people say about it, it sounds like it’s too
    heavy, to underpowered, and too flashy to be heavy and underpowered!
    c. 150cc Quannon Naked, sounds like a bad porn/AV film, a little lighter than its sister model (new frame?), maybe the plastic
    body panels were what made the sister bike so heavy. But still old engineering and an old design.
  3. SYM- T1, a dressed up version of my wolf 125 apparently (although I think it looks better than the Quannon offerings), kinda expensive
    for what it is, not many opinions/review yet from fellow forumosans.
  4. Hartford- A few models, but honestly, to me they all look the same, and I like bikes because they look like bikes, not scooters that have
    had their plastic covers fall off. Besides if I tried to ride one, my knees would be beside my ears. But they do seem to get
    praise here, so I don’t consider them bad, just not to my liking.

I’m a Taipei dweller, so parking is on the street, and I’m not going to be modifying the bike in ANY way, my Chinese sucks, so I won’t be telling anyone to modify it in any way. Stock is good with me!

I’m not some teenage gangster wannabe, and I don’t want to be attacked by them either, so I prefer a bike thats not too flashy, nice to look at yes, but not something that says ‘mug/stab/hate me now’.
I actually prefer something thats got more attention paid to the engine than the design, ie. I’d rather outrun the teenage gangster wannabe’s rather than trying to outshine them.

So please, your opinions on the makes and models available to the domestic market.
and your opinions on my opinions, am I right, am I wrong, did I misunderstand anything?

Thanks for letting me pick your brains.

Hardly anyone is badmouthing them these days. Just me, really. Because my gearbox exploded at 80k/hr. Sort of put me off a little bit. :laughing:

So, their gearboxes are not so good! Evidence-personal experience!

I can accept that, it’s a lot better than the usual heresay and rumors.

But Is there any other information about them. Their website says they are a Taiwanese company, but from the posts here, I get the impression that it’s a mainland company???

ps, what model did you have that exploded?

CPI SM250, one of the first-generation models. Apparently they have modified the design in later editions.

Ok, so it was one of their motard style models.

Apart from the gearbox issue, how was the bike? Good/bad? Was there enough power from the 250cc engine compared to the weight of the bike? That seems to be a common complaint of domestic bikes here, make an engine 200/250cc and make the seat out of lead to completely undermine the point of making the engine bigger. Oh, and when the gearbox did work, how was it? My wolf125 has quite a short range on the lower gears and is a high revving little bugger.

I forgot what it was like. Just a normal little bike. Nothing special that I can recall. Seat was a bit narrow. Cheap, though. You’d be best waiting for some other owners to chip in. I don’t have much nice to say about it other than the price is nice.

Thats fair,

I’m just trying to get an idea about all the domestic options out there. The information is so sporadic considering that the market is so small, I thought that getting information and comparisons between the options would be an easy job. Turns out just getting the basic info is a bi**ch, let alone any comparisons.

Would love to help but like you said, there is not much choice in the local products. Most of the guys on this forum modified these bikes as soon as they got them to compensate the issues that you mentioned above.

Good luck with your search.

I have a first gen CPI with 19,000k on it. I love it, but it’s not my daily driver and I have modded almost everything on it, except the engine. Obviously you are going to get the most power out of this bike compared to your other choices. The prices of these bikes new these days are just about the same as a brand new Kymco or T1 with way more power. What kind of riding style do you want? I have always been a “crotch rocket” style rider, but I am really enjoying a different style of riding with the CPI. You are up so much higher than normal. The CPI is cheap though and if you are riding it everyday then be prepared to have some patience. Things will break!

The Kymco Quannon is the biggest turd out there. It is just old technology. It is so boring to ride in my opinion. I would think the same thing about the T1 too, but I have not ridden one yet. I would personally buy a T1 over a Quannon.

I don’t know anything about Hartford motorcycles. I had a friend that had the 150cc for a while but he hated the transmission on it. He ended up selling it and losing money. I would never buy one, the technology seems old as well on those. But I don’t know shit about them.

The Kymco Quannon and SYM T1 are probably going to be just about the same. Heavy and slow. If you take care of them then they will probably be good to you.

The CPI is totally out of their league. It is a totally different bike and riding style. I have to say, I only ride my CPI when I am mountain riding or going to the track when I don’t feel like riding my race NSR. I abuse the shit out of my CPI and haven’t had any problems yet. Who knows though, my motorcycle club always says the CPI is很恐怖的車.

From personal experience I can say that my old Kymco (mid-90’s Zing 150) is at least as reliable as any Honda or Kawasaki I’ve owned back in the states. I’ve just relentlessly beaten the snot out of it on marathon rides (it’s been everywhere other than Jinmen, Matsu and Green Island) crashing along road conditions best suited for enduros, leaving it out in the weather for months at a time including rainy season and typhoons…I think you get the picture.

In the three years I’ve owned it it’s never broken down on me…not once. My wheel bearings went out once but it still got me from mid-way up the Central Cross back to Taipei without a problem.

Now, as for the performance…well it sucks in pretty much every category. Its just an underpowered hog with piss-poor handling. I fondly refer to it as “My Sled” as it’s a big hunk of metal that gets me where I need to go, nevermind how.

As you can see I love it and I’ll probably use it as a yard sculpture if I ever get a house in the country down south.

Anyway, its sounds like you know plenty but you are trying to get us to talk you into getting a SM-250. Cause thats your only choice if you want a MIT 250 moto that isnt a Venox.

I personally wouldnt buy one. The one I tried seemed torquey and had a lot of pep but…

  1. I dont trust an upstart company that would have a gearbox shatter and then not inform customers properly or recall first gen bikes (refer to the Longest Thread Ever aka CPI-250 and Related Banter)

  2. It doesnt seem at all comfortable for long rides. it feels like a dirt bike in every way (as you would expect by looking at it). It might be OK if you are just using it in Taipei.

Finally, I know you are sick of hearing this but you really are doing yourself a disservice by backing yourself into a corner with this ‘must get domestic 250’ idea. Get someone who likes bikes and speaks Chinese, then find a good dealer who can help you track down a good import.

Or try a different 150 or 200.

Those are really your two best bets.

Also, dont worry about Teenage Gangsters. You live in Taipei, not Taichung.

I have a catalogue of bikes available in Taiwan in 2011 in which the following information is given for the SYM 野狼傳奇 125 EFI:

Engine capacity 249cc;
Horsepower 23.4ps/8000rpm

A curious misprint, don’t you think?
Does it suggest that a 250cc version of the Wolf Classic is in the pipeline?

If so, it may be worth waiting for.
I wonder whether anybody has heard anything about this.

[quote=“PaddyB”]From personal experience I can say that my old Kymco (mid-90’s Zing 150) is at least as reliable as any Honda or Kawasaki I’ve owned back in the states. I’ve just relentlessly beaten the snot out of it on marathon rides (it’s been everywhere other than Jinmen, Mazu and Green Island) crashing along road conditions best suited for enduros, leaving it out in the weather for months at a time including rainy season and typhoons…I think you get the picture.

In the three years I’ve owned it it’s never broken down on me…not once. My wheel bearings went out once but it still got me from mid-way up the Central Cross back to Taipei without a problem.

Now, as for the performance…well it sucks in pretty much every category. Its just an underpowered hog with piss-poor handling. I fondly refer to it as “My Sled” as it’s a big hunk of metal that gets me where I need to go, nevermind how.

As you can see I love it and I’ll probably use it as a yard sculpture if I ever get a house in the country down south.

Anyway, its sounds like you know plenty but you are trying to get us to talk you into getting a SM-250. Cause thats your only choice if you want a MIT 250 moto that isnt a Venox.

I personally wouldnt buy one. The one I tried seemed torquey and had a lot of pep but…

  1. I don’t trust an upstart company that would have a gearbox shatter and then not inform customers properly or recall first gen bikes (refer to the Longest Thread Ever aka CPI-250 and Related Banter)

  2. It doesnt seem at all comfortable for long rides. it feels like a dirt bike in every way (as you would expect by looking at it). It might be OK if you are just using it in Taipei.

Finally, I know you are sick of hearing this but you really are doing yourself a disservice by backing yourself into a corner with this ‘must get domestic 250’ idea. Get someone who likes bikes and speaks Chinese, then find a good dealer who can help you track down a good import.

Or try a different 150 or 200.

Those are really your two best bets.[/quote]

Oh PaddyB, what a sad response! Poor PaddyB!!

I’m sure every single Taiwanese motorcycle company plays by the books! Anyway, my 1st gen CPI has no problems and I drive the shit out of it. Did I mention that mine is a first gen and has no problems? Just being the devils advocate, but did I mention my 19,000km are all hard miles (track and mountain riding), I’m sure every motorcycle/car company here in TW has no issues and is perfect and always discloses their problems. I’m pretty sure!! I’m pretty sure SYM or Kymco would be sure to disclose every single problem that goes wrong with their motorcycles. Please please tell me your problems with the CPI ( oh bad transmission…oh bad transmission, oh bad transmmission.) Who in the F#$% in the past 2 years has personal experience with a faulty CPI tranny? Who has personal experience? I’m sure the Kymco Quannan, SYM T1, or even Kymco Zing is just sooo much better.

Im not saying buy a CPI, really, because they are not perfect, but they are not any worse than a Kymco Quannan, SYM T1, or a Kymco Zing. They are all about the same…well CPI has way more power!
Whatever you decide to go with a Kymco, SYM, CPI, SYM or Hartfort they are all going to be about the same. The only one big difference is that the CPI is more powerful and has a different riding style. You should just test ride all of them and decide.
I should apologize to you PaddyB because you are comparing your personal experience to a Kymco Zing. I’m sorry I doubted you, my bad. I should have know you rode a Zing!

[quote=“rk1951”]I have a first gen CPI with 19,000k on it. I love it, but it’s not my daily driver and I have modded almost everything on it, except the engine. Obviously you are going to get the most power out of this bike compared to your other choices. The prices of these bikes new these days are just about the same as a brand new Kymco or T1 with way more power. What kind of riding style do you want? I have always been a “crotch rocket” style rider, but I am really enjoying a different style of riding with the CPI. You are up so much higher than normal. The CPI is cheap though and if you are riding it everyday then be prepared to have some patience. Things will break!

The Kymco Quannon is the biggest turd out there. It is just old technology. It is so boring to ride in my opinion. I would think the same thing about the T1 too, but I have not ridden one yet. I would personally buy a T1 over a Quannon.

I don’t know anything about Hartford motorcycles. I had a friend that had the 150cc for a while but he hated the transmission on it. He ended up selling it and losing money. I would never buy one, the technology seems old as well on those. But I don’t know shit about them.

The Kymco Quannon and SYM T1 are probably going to be just about the same. Heavy and slow. If you take care of them then they will probably be good to you.

The CPI is totally out of their league. It is a totally different bike and riding style. I have to say, I only ride my CPI when I am mountain riding or going to the track when I don’t feel like riding my race NSR. I abuse the shit out of my CPI and haven’t had any problems yet. Who knows though, my motorcycle club always says the CPI is很恐怖的車.[/quote]

Ok, it’s good to know someone has had a good experience with CPI out there. I have to say I think it’s funny when you say that it’s cheap when riding it every day… I’m trying to think of a domestic bike here that isn’t cheap lol.

I have to agree with you on the Quannon and T1, they’ll look after you, but they’re nothing special. People notice them here because there’s not so many of them on the road, but that doesn’t mean that they are good.
I’ve never been on the Quannon, and don’t really want to be, the T1 I did get to sit on once, it felt nice with it’s bigger tank and sculpted sides. But for both of them, I think it’s a case of trying to polish a turd!

It terms of style, I always used to be drawn to a more cruiser style of bike, but since being in the 'wan, I’ve modified myfelf a little.
Now I’m on a wolf 125, and I find it fine for the city riding I do, but it can also survive when I go for a mountian run.
With the options here in the domestic market, my riding style is more cafe racer/crotch rocket now, the only domestic option for a cruiser is the Kymco Vennox, while I think it looks good, there’s no point in buying one here as it’s too large for the scooter parking (when it’s a white plate!?) and ironically it’s cheaper to buy in the US than it is here. If you’re gonna drop that kind of cash, bite the bullet and go import!

I’m not so much a motard rider, and I would be using it every day, the CPI XR250 caught my eye, but I can find no reviews on it anywhere which is frustrating.

“the CPI XR250 caught my eye”
Do you mean the CPI 250 SX (enduro version), or is there a new model?

D**ma rode the snot out of a 1st gen CPI SM, with no failures. The major bad by CPI, IMO, was selling the bikes on the assembly line when the factory was flooded without disclosing the bikes were (partially?) (wholly?) submerged.

One great feature of the CPI 250 is that the SM and SX wheelsets are interchangeable… buy an SM, then swap in an SX wheelset when you want to play in the dirt.

[quote=“PaddyB”]From personal experience I can say that my old Kymco (mid-90’s Zing 150) is at least as reliable as any Honda or Kawasaki I’ve owned back in the states. I’ve just relentlessly beaten the snot out of it on marathon rides (it’s been everywhere other than Jinmen, Mazu and Green Island) crashing along road conditions best suited for enduros, leaving it out in the weather for months at a time including rainy season and typhoons…I think you get the picture.

In the three years I’ve owned it it’s never broken down on me…not once. My wheel bearings went out once but it still got me from mid-way up the Central Cross back to Taipei without a problem.

Now, as for the performance…well it sucks in pretty much every category. Its just an underpowered hog with piss-poor handling. I fondly refer to it as “My Sled” as it’s a big hunk of metal that gets me where I need to go, nevermind how.

As you can see I love it and I’ll probably use it as a yard sculpture if I ever get a house in the country down south.

Anyway, its sounds like you know plenty but you are trying to get us to talk you into getting a SM-250. Cause thats your only choice if you want a MIT 250 moto that isnt a Venox.

I personally wouldnt buy one. The one I tried seemed torquey and had a lot of pep but…

  1. I don’t trust an upstart company that would have a gearbox shatter and then not inform customers properly or recall first gen bikes (refer to the Longest Thread Ever aka CPI-250 and Related Banter)

  2. It doesnt seem at all comfortable for long rides. it feels like a dirt bike in every way (as you would expect by looking at it). It might be OK if you are just using it in Taipei.

Finally, I know you are sick of hearing this but you really are doing yourself a disservice by backing yourself into a corner with this ‘must get domestic 250’ idea. Get someone who likes bikes and speaks Chinese, then find a good dealer who can help you track down a good import.

Or try a different 150 or 200.

Those are really your two best bets.[/quote]

I’m not really into motards, so I’ll probably pass on the CPI SM250.

and I agree with you that I’m putting myself in a corner with the restrictions I’m putting on myself, but the reason I put them there, is because I feel that this question has been asked many times before on here, and there’s never been a decent answer beacuse most people revert to the ‘just get an import’ answer rather than actually answering the question.

If one day I get the money to buy an import, I will, but 70% tax is a bth, and I really don’t want to give the government that much of my money, when it’s not essential.

lol, very true!

I just used them as an example of all the idiots who think that a scooter looks good because it has more neon than a binlang booth hanging of of it.

[quote=“adikarmika”]I have a catalogue of bikes available in Taiwan in 2011 in which the following information is given for the SYM 野狼傳奇 125 EFI:

Engine capacity 249cc;
Horsepower 23.4ps/8000rpm

A curious misprint, don’t you think?
Does it suggest that a 250cc version of the Wolf Classic is in the pipeline?

If so, it may be worth waiting for.
I wonder whether anybody has heard anything about this.[/quote]

That would be interesting, I noticed that SYM brought out a big/thick rear wheel version of the wolf recently, so maybe they might bring out a 250cc version, although if they did I can see it being as rare as hens teeth considering how rare the 150cc versions are.
But will keep an eye and ear open.

[quote=“rk1951”][quote=“PaddyB”]From personal experience I can say that my old Kymco (mid-90’s Zing 150) is at least as reliable as any Honda or Kawasaki I’ve owned back in the states. I’ve just relentlessly beaten the snot out of it on marathon rides (it’s been everywhere other than Jinmen, Mazu and Green Island) crashing along road conditions best suited for enduros, leaving it out in the weather for months at a time including rainy season and typhoons…I think you get the picture.

In the three years I’ve owned it it’s never broken down on me…not once. My wheel bearings went out once but it still got me from mid-way up the Central Cross back to Taipei without a problem.

Now, as for the performance…well it sucks in pretty much every category. Its just an underpowered hog with piss-poor handling. I fondly refer to it as “My Sled” as it’s a big hunk of metal that gets me where I need to go, nevermind how.

As you can see I love it and I’ll probably use it as a yard sculpture if I ever get a house in the country down south.

Anyway, its sounds like you know plenty but you are trying to get us to talk you into getting a SM-250. Cause thats your only choice if you want a MIT 250 moto that isnt a Venox.

I personally wouldnt buy one. The one I tried seemed torquey and had a lot of pep but…

  1. I don’t trust an upstart company that would have a gearbox shatter and then not inform customers properly or recall first gen bikes (refer to the Longest Thread Ever aka CPI-250 and Related Banter)

  2. It doesnt seem at all comfortable for long rides. it feels like a dirt bike in every way (as you would expect by looking at it). It might be OK if you are just using it in Taipei.

Finally, I know you are sick of hearing this but you really are doing yourself a disservice by backing yourself into a corner with this ‘must get domestic 250’ idea. Get someone who likes bikes and speaks Chinese, then find a good dealer who can help you track down a good import.

Or try a different 150 or 200.

Those are really your two best bets.[/quote]

Oh PaddyB, what a sad response! Poor PaddyB!!

I’m sure every single Taiwanese motorcycle company plays by the books! Anyway, my 1st gen CPI has no problems and I drive the shit out of it. Did I mention that mine is a first gen and has no problems? Just being the devils advocate, but did I mention my 19,000km are all hard miles (track and mountain riding), I’m sure every motorcycle/car company here in TW has no issues and is perfect and always discloses their problems. I’m pretty sure!! I’m pretty sure SYM or Kymco would be sure to disclose every single problem that goes wrong with their motorcycles. Please please tell me your problems with the CPI ( oh bad transmission…oh bad transmission, oh bad transmmission.) Who in the F#$% in the past 2 years has personal experience with a faulty CPI tranny? Who has personal experience? I’m sure the Kymco Quannan, SYM T1, or even Kymco Zing is just sooo much better.

Im not saying buy a CPI, really, because they are not perfect, but they are not any worse than a Kymco Quannan, SYM T1, or a Kymco Zing. They are all about the same…well CPI has way more power!
Whatever you decide to go with a Kymco, SYM, CPI, SYM or Hartfort they are all going to be about the same. The only one big difference is that the CPI is more powerful and has a different riding style. You should just test ride all of them and decide.
I should apologize to you PaddyB because you are comparing your personal experience to a Kymco Zing. I’m sorry I doubted you, my bad. I should have know you rode a Zing![/quote]

I kinda have to agree with you, there’s no real good domestic bikes, they’re all pretty much as bad as each other.

I look at it from the perspective of, which one has the least things wrong with it, rather than which one is the best.

cynical I know, but thats my way of trying to make the domestic bike market here look better than it is.

[quote=“maunaloa”]“the CPI XR250 caught my eye”
Do you mean the CPI 250 SX (enduro version), or is there a new model?

D**ma rode the snot out of a 1st gen CPI SM, with no failures. The major bad by CPI, IMO, was selling the bikes on the assembly line when the factory was flooded without disclosing the bikes were (partially?) (wholly?) submerged.

One great feature of the CPI 250 is that the SM and SX wheelsets are interchangeable… buy an SM, then swap in an SX wheelset when you want to play in the dirt.[/quote]

No I mean the CPI XR250, I guess it’s a new model, it’s got a classic look to it and is not a motard.

cpi-motor.com.tw/wwwroot/xr.htm
did the link work?

I found it on the CPI website, and on another blog, where they had a photo of the CPI and a 1950’s (I think) Ducatti next to each other, it was clear where CPI got their styling cues from.
I quite like the look, but there’s no real info out there on the bike, peoples experience of the CPI’s SM/SX models is giving me a bit of an idea about the companies reliability/build quality etc.