Crime and Liveability in Canada vs USA

[color=green]Moderator’s note: this thread is split from [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/most-liveable-city/24082/1 Liveable City[/url][/color]

I know they have CSI on at least three times a night but you might want to think about cutting down on your intake.

I know they have CSI on at least three times a night but you might want to think about cutting down on your intake.[/quote]

Cute. But;

[url=http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm]FACT: Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:

373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States [/url]

Hmmmmm compared to Ahhhhh

Google is my mouthpiece.

[quote=“purple people eaters”]Listen Grubber Kick, I think Canada is a great place and like every other place Canadians should be proud of where they

America is a more violent society than Canada. I don’t know why anyone would argue otherwise. Facts are facts.

Crime comparisons between Canada and the United States

Canadians steal more, Americans kill more.

On the other hand, the “safe place = good place” theory may work for Canada, but it backfires when applied to all those Australian cities in the Top 10 list.

Australia tops International Crime Victims Survey

Canadian cities safe? My ass. Toronto is a hell of a lot more dangerous these days than New York.

calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/ … 74724.html

Just a guess but maybe violent crime, etc is less in the states is because the possibilty of the other person packing heat. Don’t feel this is enough for our country to be so willy nilly on gun control though. But if it boiled down to it 30 below celcius scares me more than getting shot :wink:

Ahhhh, the gun behind every blade of grass theory. Yeah, great idea.

Chewy, this is one incident of gun violence in Toronto. Some nutjob in Montreal went on a rampage 15 years ago. Still, both cities are pretty safe compared to any city in the US. Tasmania had a murder spree some time ago. Is Tasmania as unsafe as New Haven?

The OP brought us a list of “livable” cities. By it’s very definition, if there is a chance you could die a premature, un-natural death, then you don’t qualify, do you? Good thing Vancouver has Tru Davies* rewinding days and righting wrongs, or it never would have made the list.

*A humourous aside for PPE. Brought to you by the alumni of Hollywood U.

Grubber, you do realize that Taiwan has a higher or comparable murder rate compared to the US, and any form of gun ownership here is illegal? Welcome to the jungle. :slight_smile:

Americans murder each other more because it still has such a huge underclass. The average middle class person is no more in danger from random violence than he is in Canada unless he or she is having sexual relations with a nutter.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Americans murder each other more because it still has such a huge underclass. [/quote]

Underclass? :roflmao: You sound like the late Gus Hall :smiling_imp: The GDP per capita in the poorest American state is still higher than in most Canadian provinces with the exception of Alberta, Ontario, and maybe British Columbia (when it isn’t stagnating under NDP socialism). The taxes are much lower in the US. The “real underclass” in my opinion are Canadian families who are working in low-end service jobs, paying high federal, provincial, and city taxes, and who are still proud Canadians. Myopic, provincial, unambitious people abound in the Great White North.

So many people around the world want to become part of this huge “underclass” in the US including many Canadians on Nafta visas.

Nonsense. Poverty and the opportunities available to any individual are not determined simply by GDP. First Nations people in Canada are in dollar figures better off than most of the world but they attend university, own business, and find themselves incarcerated at rates much lower and higher than other groups in Canada. When you group poor people together the opportunities for each person drops even if better opportunities exist for society as a whole. Growing up in a town where everyone is poor by the standards of your society, where the school system is piss poor, and where there are few jobs creates a cycle of poverty and underperformance and often violence especially in places where there are many opportunities for making money illicitly (such as through as drug selling which accounts for a huge percentage of the murders in the US).

Your last point is risible. Any Canadian who can emmigrate to the US is educated and chosing to move for more money or career advancement. Such a person would not ever move to a poor neighborhood where crime was high, the neighbors uneducated, and the school system a mess.

As for “underclass” the term is common parlance used to describe just recently the urban poor in New Orleans and the car burning Muslim youth of France.

Dude. Americans vote for bush. :canada:

You consistently demonstrate your hate-on for Canada, which is kind of interesting, but in this case it’s not grounded in reality. Claiming that the U.S. does not have an underclass based on its GDP per capita is crazy talk. Averages are averages, and when you have a wealth gap you can still have a high average–all you need is for the top echelon to be a lot higher to bring up the average (I might have thought this to be the most basic concept in statistics that even your average Joe understands implicitly, but clearly that’s not true in your case). We all saw the underclass on television in New Orleans this past year. I’ve seen them in various American cities. We have an underclass in Canada, too. They’re called “First Nations” people.

Calling people in Canada working in low-paying service jobs an “underclass” is just plain stupid, and is insulting to people around the world living lives of daily desparation who truly qualify for that moniker. And your claim that “myopic, provincial, unambitious people abound in the Great White North” is probably true; but, then, it is anywhere.

[quote=“porcelainprincess”]all you need is for the top echelon to be a lot higher to bring up the average (I might have thought this to be the most basic concept in statistics that even your average Joe understands implicitly, but clearly that’s not true in your case). We all saw the underclass on television in New Orleans this past year. I’ve seen them in various American cities. We have an underclass in Canada, too. They’re called “First Nations” people.
[/quote]

Have you ever read Conservative pundit Diane Francis? :unamused: Wealth disparities are more pronounced in Canada.

[quote=“Diane Francis”]
Canada has become a collection of family dynasties and management fiefdoms. This book profiles its thirty-two wealthiest families. Along with five conglomerates, they controlled one-third of Canada’s non-financial assets in 1985, nearly double what they controlled just four years earlier. The concentration of wealth in Canada is much more profound than it is in the U.S., where the largest firms are publicly held. [/quote]
namebase.org/sources/cE.html

I laughed at Mucha Man’s use of the phrase “underclass” when referring to the US. Of course, I don’t think there is real underclass in Canada or the US. Even native Canadians have a wide range of tax breaks, educational subsidies, affirmative action programs etc. that give them every opportunity to get ahead – if they really want to. Of course, these handouts also “breed” dependency. The real underclass are the billion people around the world who earn less than US$2 a day.

Mucha Man said the US has a higher murder rate because it still has a huge “underclass.” All I am saying is that wealth disparities are higher in Canada and the GDP per capita statistics for most provinces are lower than the poorest US states. In my opinion, there are more working poor in Canada because the system wants to keep them poor, stupid, and proponents of eating Tim Hortons and watching Hockey Night in Canda. :smiling_imp:

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“Diane Francis”]
Canada has become a collection of family dynasties and management fiefdoms. This book profiles its thirty-two wealthiest families. Along with five conglomerates, they controlled one-third of Canada’s non-financial assets in 1985, nearly double what they controlled just four years earlier. The concentration of wealth in Canada is much more profound than it is in the U.S., where the largest firms are publicly held. [/quote]
I must have a reading comprehension problem. Or maybe not. How exactly does this show that Canada has a larger underclass than the U.S., or that wealth disparities are more pronounced here? How does “one-third rich” equal “sizeable underclass” or “greater wealth disparity?” And if the GDP in some provinces is lower than the poorest US states, then what of it? We’re talking about “underclass” here, about a contingent of people living in grinding poverty. We heard about them in New Orleans. I’ve seen them in Buffalo and Detroit and Chicago. I’m not saying that five out of every ten people in Chicago are living in crushing poverty, or even one out of ten—but they’re there, and they’re noticeable. As they are in Mississippi. As they are in numerous First Nations reserves in Canada.

[quote=“Chewycorns”]
In my opinion, there are more working poor in Canada because the system wants to keep them poor, stupid, and proponents of eating Tim Hortons and watching Hockey Night in Canda. [/quote][/quote]
Online message boards are fun, aren’t they? You can say things that are completely idiotic while preserving your anonymity. Unless you were being silly just for the sake of it, then this conversation is not serious, and I’m done wasting my time.

In my town we didn

Let’s stop beating around the bush here. “Underclass” is code word for “poor black people” in the U.S. Statistically, that is where the vast majority of crime in the U.S. occurs - in poor black ghettos. If you don’t hang places like South Compton, you’re as safe in the U.S. as you are in Canada.

Yes, that’s true but also irrelevant to my argument. It doesn’t matter that an underclass is white or black or native american: the conditions of living in relative poverty, with few educational and employment opportunities creates conditions for people to do poorly in life and often engage in criminal activities.

And being poor does not necessarily make you part of an underclass. Most Taiwanese 20 years ago were very poor but education and hard work were valued. That makes all the difference. An underclass is usually considered a group who are poor, uneducated, hopeless and living in an environment where most everyone they know is in the same boat and know one really knows how to improve.

As chewie says first nations people in canada have opportunities (such as free university education) that many others don’t (including me). But I would never trade my upbringing for that of what I have seen on reserves (and I have seen this up close having spend two summers in the Yukon living in a town of 70). The effects of having a substandard educaton and
no healthy role models, negates any theoretical benefits offered by the state.

http://filecabi.net/video/bush-whatever.html

Ha![/quote]