CSB: Time to "consider" territory change? (Here we go again)

Anyway, Chen has a great plan, let him be the fall guy for change. Stop your warmonger, you sound like all of the people in March 2000 trying to scare everyone into not voting for Chen because China will invade. Stop kowtowing to China.[/quote]

Chen has a great plan? I would really love to hear it, I’m not against the ideals of TI, but show me how material gain will be achieved. Real goals of being accepted in the in the international community and free of the threat from China.

You say its all scaremongering on the part of the KMT, in 2000 CSB made a one if and 5 no’s pledge. The 5 no’s were [quote]no “state- to-state description in the Constitution”; no referendum to change the status quo; no abolition of the National Unification Council nor the Guidelines for National Unification. [/quote]. We know that CSB is not keeping to these 5 no’s pledge and the reason given is his one if [quote]“the CCP regime has no intention to use military force against Taiwan.” [/quote].

It is CSB who is saying the build up of missiles changes the status quo and justifies his actions under the guise of national security. In my opinion the build up of missiles is changing the status quo, I agree with him here, but it is unfair to say it is only the KMT that are concerned about the threat from China.

CSB is playing with words there with the missile build-up, as usual. The world’s only superpower also points missiles at many countries and has war plans prepared for all contingencies. But this does not mean it has the “intention” (which everybody understood from Chen as imminent/premeditated intention) to use force against all of those countries. CSB understands very well under what circumstances there may be use of military force and under what circumstances there will not be, but he plays these games to generate a self-fulfilling prophecy, much like how he does so during the past elections – by intentionally provoking China to react in order to get sympathy votes. What he surely knows and only seems to forget is that every time he does this, more missiles go up.

Now missiles are no good for anybody and they should be removed. If Chen has the best interest of Taiwan at heart, he would agree. But for that to happen, he had better start acknowledging the other side exists and deal with them in good faith, instead of using them as a punch-bag of convenience while plowing ahead in his own puerile world centered at Tainan.

well, maybe what he wants is to clear up the mess the Constitution in Taiwan is (since it was made for a single party entity, and had ammendments made by the old leaders for one time occasions). So, should Taiwan continue to have the garbage inside the house or just start to clean it step by step. The Americans are only against change on sovereignity issues, as they believe that delimitation of territory = independence. If they just change the part where it can streamline the government, then they will have all the right (including US support) to do it.

But then again, it won’t do any good having all these good ideas, as for sure they will 100% blocked by the blue camp, as they try to show to the Taiwanese people how innefective they are.

About the media, you just have to look on the way they post news. The newest chapter on the China Times stating that Yu called the protestors “Chinese Pigs”, being the source a member of the protest itself who now can’t seem to remember who told her that. So this “hear say” journalism that makes front pages is the kind of thing people have to endure in Taiwan (at least, if you have any sence).

You realize that it’s not hearsay… that Chen Shui-bian is the one who said yesterday that the Constitution should be re-written to modify the territory that it claims?

I know, and that is a most logical step to do, specially to remove the claims over PRC, Tibet and Mongolia. This would for sure make the constitution a more realistic one, but they have so many other things to start cleaning up.

Logical from which perspective? from reflecting reality, well that would be true. Logical from what will benifit the country? Not so clear,

Firstly there is no way this will go through the LY, so this is political posturing plain and simple. There will be increased tensions for international relations and investors will be wary, which has an effect to the Taiwan people. It seems CSB yet again is trying to boost his and the parties popularity with a contentious issue. In my opinion, the order that CSB build his values is, me first, then my party, then interests of the people come a distant 3rd, oh “noble” CSB.

Well, unless you don’t see the news, international investment in Taiwan is growing and well.
In the end of the day, no matter how many people go do shit ups, in terms of biz Taiwan is growing. Now we will also have increased flights cross-strait and Taiwanese companies can now invite more Chinese people to come to Taiwan. So, I guess that even CSB is more open to China that what the KMT ever was - and this is a fact. They had their chance of doing it, and they didn’t, so why are they complaning now?

I find Taiwan’s economic news to be suspect these days. Green always spin out some numbers and interpretation that make it seem Taiwan economy is fine, not to worry. However, in light of unemployment being higher than most people remember in their lifetime and ecomonic stagnation that people are feeling, seems contrary to the Green spun reports.

The constitution issue is a red herring, as Mick and cctang has already stated. The issue is complex and to just use the amatuerish reason that it should be changed to reflect “reality” is misleading. There are other contested territories with Japan, Vietnam, Phillippines, etc. How do you address those issues?

I mean the Blues could give the Greens such a hard time, they might decide to write a constitution that only applies to the territories South of Taizhong. At which point you will have another ROC civil war in minature. And the PRC might feel compelled to save ROC from itself…for the stability of the region of course.

[quote=“mr_boogie”]Well, unless you don’t see the news, international investment in Taiwan is growing and well.
In the end of the day, no matter how many people go do shit ups, in terms of biz Taiwan is growing. Now we will also have increased flights cross-strait and Taiwanese companies can now invite more Chinese people to come to Taiwan. So, I guess that even CSB is more open to China that what the KMT ever was - and this is a fact. They had their chance of doing it, and they didn’t, so why are they complaning now?[/quote]
Because when the KMT was in power the PRC was not an economic powerhouse it is today. We could afford to carry out those policies. Like most TI supporters you are unwilling to accept the PRC has advance a lot in the past 10 years. The PRC foriegn policy has become more refined in dealing with the ROC on all international fronts, where as ROC foriegn policy has stagnated.

However, the key question I have always had is when is the Green side going to tap on the knowledge capital on the Blue side to forward an aggenda for the good of ROC, Taiwan. From my limited experience with the DPP they seem quite content with just arriving into a position of power and have not evolve into the next stage of being Statemen with foresight.

Even the structure in the DPP is tailor to select inidividuals that can garner the most votes, hook or crook. I mean that is important in the “democracy.” But I rarely here anything about leadership, stewardship, or diplomacy and how to nuture that in their party.

I’m not saying the KMT has not suffered from a resource and braindrain by the private sector either. But at least they think about these things from time to time.

It is even common knowledge that the DPP don’t even have to resources to conduct backdoor diplomacy with the PRC or USA effectively anymore. They are literary flying blind half the time, like a cowboy making snap decisions off the seat of their pants. That has me worried.

No AC, YOU are talking bullshit … when the KMT was in power they didn’t have to contest a Chinese powerhouse, that’s why all went snooth and they were lucky … I guess there are a lot of contested territories in Asia, Japan/Russia, Philippines /Vietnam and almost all the time China pops up … because they think they own it all …

Your right, they were just lobbing artillery at us back in the days.
Well ROC does own a lot of terroritory. Just answer the question.
How will TI address Diaoyutai with Japan and the Spartely Islands with Vietnam?

Or is TI all fluff and no substance on real political issues?

Is okay to admit TI is run by a bunch of hacks, 85% of Taiwan came to the same conclusion already.

Well, they can offer Diaoyutai to Japan in exchange for formal recognition, and ask the Spratley Islands to Vietnam in exchange for easier VISA’s…
that would do the trick… and wouldn’t alter the so loved status quo, would it?

So why not give up Taipei to PRC for recognition as well. If you plan on giving up territory anyways.

well, they could exchange Taipei City for Formal recognition, but that would create an enclave inside the Taiwan Nation (like West Berlin).

So there are territories on Taiwan that you feel is intergral to the Taiwan Nation. But why isn’t Diaoyutai intergral to the Taiwan Nation?

The Taiwanese have been fishing the waters around Diaoyutai for generations. By giving up Daioyutai and the fishing rights in the surrounding waters aren’t you allowing a Japanese to impede on Taiwan Nation as well.

The Moroccans have been fishing for generations in Spanish waters (specially if you consider the island of Perejil, which lays 200 meters away from the Moroccos coast line), and still, have no rights over it.

The territories that are integral part of the Taiwan Nation are, of course, Formosa and the Pescadores Islands (because those where the ones that Japan ceded). I don’t remember reading the Diaoyutai name in the treaties. As Japan considered nullis terra the islands in 1885 (because no trace of Chinese occupation has been made) the clames that they where ceded to Japan in 1895 are not correct.

But the Japanese are enforcing their rights not to let Taiwanese who have been fishing there for generations not to fish there anymore. Are you saying the Japanese have the right to unilaterally impede on Taiwanese livelihoods and take away territory?

The Japanese never use to fish 25 km off Taiwan’s northern shores.

Not to mention there were no trace of Japanese on Diaoyutai either. Are the Japanese becoming imperal once again and grabbing territory all over Asia.

Again, the Perejil case comes to mind. That island is about 200m from Moroccan coast line, and it is still Spain. For sure you’ll find many similar cases around the globe…

Actually, there is a japanese lighthouse and a Japanese marker in those Islands. It is the only piece of humanization they have.

They built the lighthouse, as Japan like to call it, as an “aggressive negotiation tactic.” Even with the lighthouse, the territory is still disputed.

yeap. but they did more than anyone else… so one cannot blame them.