monstersandcritics.com/news/ … aiwans_ex-[quote]president_dismisses_lawyers_to_protest_"unjust_trial"_
Chen said he was disillusioned with his ‘illegal’ detention and trial, and would stop cooperating with the court by dismissing his three lawyers, stop summoning witnesses and stop answering questions in cross-examination. [/quote]
What else can he do to delay his court appearance?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1478593.php/Taiwans_ex-[quote]president_dismisses_lawyers_to_protest_"unjust_trial"_
Chen said he was disillusioned with his ‘illegal’ detention and trial, and would stop cooperating with the court by dismissing his three lawyers, stop summoning witnesses and stop answering questions in cross-examination. [/quote]
What else can he do to delay his court appearance?[/quote]
Protesting the unjust decisions that have potmarked this case since November.
monstersandcritics.com/news/ … GBaMhCUC&B
Honestly, how difficult can it be to prevent CSB from fleeing abroad? How about confiscating his passport? Placing him under house arrest?
He might co-operate better if they allow him to spend time with ailing wife. No?
Or perhaps the court fears the two of them might escape Taiwan unnoticed. Imagine that! The ex-president and ex-first lady (in a wheel chair) going through immigration without anyone recognising them. 
monstersandcritics.com/news/ … GBaMhCUC&B
Honestly, how difficult can it be to prevent CSB from fleeing abroad? How about confiscating his passport? Placing him under house arrest?
He might co-operate better if they allow him to spend time with ailing wife. No?
Or perhaps the court fears the two of them might escape Taiwan unnoticed. Imagine that! The ex-president and ex-first lady (in a wheel chair) going through immigration without anyone recognising them. [/quote]
Remember, a change of judge was ordered when the original presiding judge actually saw the same common sense you did.
Good one. 
Yes, I’m sure if they were just nicer to him he would spill the beans on how they stole the $30M and assist in the case against him.
Look, I admit that I haven’t followed local news closely in a long time. And I admit that I was definitely pro-Green when I arrived here, was very excited about A-Bian’s election and had high hopes for Taiwan. And I admit in my gut I’d love to see all Taiwan politicians stand up and say “Fuck You China, we’re a Nation; deal with it”. And I admit the KMT stole a lot more money than A-Bian ever did.
But I still get the feeling that some people on this forum are so wound up in their pro-Green anti-Blue stance that they seem to forgive A-Bian for hte fact that he almost certainly stole $30M from the people of Taiwan, when pretending he was about change and cleaning up graft, etc. In other words, he turned out to be a greedy, scummy hypocrite, the same as the rest of them, and his little hunger strikes and dismissing his lawyers and so forth are just childish antics to distract from the fact that he’s guilty as hell. When he plays these games and points his finger at others, crying wa wa wa look at them, like a magician waving one hand in the air with a flourish as he pockets an object with the other, I don’t buy it all, but I feel that some of you folks have been suckered in by him.
And then there’s the greaseball. $30 million. Did he deserve $30 million for his service? Is he that good? Did he earn it? Was he legally, ethically and morally entitled to it? Of course not. He stole it, the same as all those African leaders who plunder their kingdoms.
Yes the Taiwan legal system is not fair and balanced. Yes the society is awash with greedy, corrupt, thieving corporate leaders and politicians. But that’s no reason to close ones eyes to A-Bian’s crimes is it? Can’t you at least admit that it was wrong for him to steal that massive pile of loot?
All I have to say is that even MYJ went to court 3 times over his corruption cases. James Soong went to court over corruption charges. Even CSB most hated Elmer Fung went to court over frabricated rape charges.
The point is they respected the court, took their lumps, appealed if they didn’t like the verdict, etc.
CSB and family are just gaming the system now with their hospital visit and firing of lawyers. Everyone is ready to go to court and settle this matter except them.
Good one.
Yes, I’m sure if they were just nicer to him he would spill the beans on how they stole the $30M and assist in the case against him.
Look, I admit that I haven’t followed local news closely in a long time. And I admit that I was definitely pro-Green when I arrived here, was very excited about A-Bian’s election and had high hopes for Taiwan. And I admit in my gut I’d love to see all Taiwan politicians stand up and say “Fuck You China, we’re a Nation; deal with it”. And I admit the KMT stole a lot more money than A-Bian ever did.
But I still get the feeling that some people on this forum are so wound up in their pro-Green anti-Blue stance that they seem to forgive A-Bian for hte fact that he almost certainly stole $30M from the people of Taiwan, when pretending he was about change and cleaning up graft, etc. In other words, he turned out to be a greedy, scummy hypocrite, the same as the rest of them, and his little hunger strikes and dismissing his lawyers and so forth are just childish antics to distract from the fact that he’s guilty as hell. When he plays these games and points his finger at others, crying wa wa wa look at them, like a magician waving one hand in the air with a flourish as he pockets an object with the other, I don’t buy it all, but I feel that some of you folks have been suckered in by him.
And then there’s the greaseball. $30 million. Did he deserve $30 million for his service? Is he that good? Did he earn it? Was he legally, ethically and morally entitled to it? Of course not. He stole it, the same as all those African leaders who plunder their kingdoms.
Yes the Taiwan legal system is not fair and balanced. Yes the society is awash with greedy, corrupt, thieving corporate leaders and politicians. But that’s no reason to close ones eyes to A-Bian’s crimes is it? Can’t you at least admit that it was wrong for him to steal that massive pile of loot?[/quote]
QFT
I don’t see it as a matter of forgiving CSB for his “alleged” crimes. In my opinion, if he is found guilty, let him rot in jail for the rest of his life or hang him if the law allows it. To me, it wouldn’t make a difference.
What many people are protesting against is the blatant disregard for legal procedures by the prosecutors and the court. Civil and criminal procedural laws were enacted for the purpose of protecting individual rights in legal proceedings, but in CSB’s case, these laws are not being followed. We have seen legal professionals come out and say that the prosecutors and the court have violated the very laws that they are supposed to protect.
Hopefully, if CSB is found guilty, he will be put in jail for a long long time. This will serve as precedence to other politicians here that the legal system will not put up with that crap.
I agree with your main point, but I’m not sure the court and prosecutors have “blatantly” ignored legal procedures. It seems that extended periods of pre-trial and pre-conviction detention are authorized by the law and often used. As the Robert Cao, the chairman of UMC acidly pointed out earlier this year, CSB had a chance toi change the detention laws when he was president but didn’t. There is a certain justice in him suffering the same kind of arbitrary detention that other less famous people do. Cao spent months in detention (essentially solitary confinement) on charges of illegal investment in China. He was later found not guilty.
Having said that, I think the detention laws are draconian and a flagrant abuse of human rights left over from the martial law era.
If that is the case, isn’t it hypocritical for Chen supporters to claim human rights abuse now that CSB is in detention. It’s not like he’s being treated like those less famous inmates. Looking at the news coverage it looks like he’s being treated like a VIP in the system.
So for 8 years here was this huge system used for human rights violation in Taiwan that the neither the DPP nor CSB cared about, until CSB was in jail.
I guess those other detainees weren’t “human” enough for them to care…
Yes, AC, that’s what I’m saying.
One thing for sure, he and his wife are experts at avoiding actually going to trial. Maybe they need to detain him just to make sure he does go to trial. :roflmao:
I just wonder, since we are talking of a law, what were the chances of CSB to change it even if he wanted? Granted, there was no noticeable push to change it, but still, I don’t think the KMT would allow this piece of law to be changed.
As for the trial, it is, was, and probably will be, a complete circus. But the government and the KMT need this circus in order to keep governing the place like they want, so expect it to drag on, even if CSB simply declares himself guilty. Without this trial, people will focus more and more on the real issues, and the media will have to fill up the hourly 30 minutes that will be left blank with things the government probably don’t want on the media (like spending hours debating the state of the economy).
As for what he did, I wish the KMT would change the political donations law making it illegal to donate to single persons, but only to donate to parties, being that those donations would be made public.
[quote=“ABC-Law”]I don’t see it as a matter of forgiving CSB for his “alleged” crimes. In my opinion, if he is found guilty, let him rot in jail for the rest of his life or hang him if the law allows it. To me, it wouldn’t make a difference.
What many people are protesting against is the blatant disregard for legal procedures by the prosecutors and the court. Civil and criminal procedural laws were enacted for the purpose of protecting individual rights in legal proceedings, but in CSB’s case, these laws are not being followed. We have seen legal professionals come out and say that the prosecutors and the court have violated the very laws that they are supposed to protect.
Hopefully, if CSB is found guilty, he will be put in jail for a long long time. This will serve as precedence to other politicians here that the legal system will not put up with that crap.[/quote]
Very well said.
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“ABC-Law”]I don’t see it as a matter of forgiving CSB for his “alleged” crimes. In my opinion, if he is found guilty, let him rot in jail for the rest of his life or hang him if the law allows it. To me, it wouldn’t make a difference.
What many people are protesting against is the blatant disregard for legal procedures by the prosecutors and the court. Civil and criminal procedural laws were enacted for the purpose of protecting individual rights in legal proceedings, but in CSB’s case, these laws are not being followed. We have seen legal professionals come out and say that the prosecutors and the court have violated the very laws that they are supposed to protect.
Hopefully, if CSB is found guilty, he will be put in jail for a long long time. This will serve as precedence to other politicians here that the legal system will not put up with that crap.[/quote]
Very well said.[/quote]
Can you guys please describe a few civil or criminal procedural laws that are being violated in this case? I’m not arguing; I seriously don’t know the facts and if the judge or prosecutors are disregarding or violating laws, I’d be very interested to know precisely what laws you’re referrring to, what the particular laws say, and how they’re being violated. Thanks.
[quote=“Feiren”]I agree with your main point, but I’m not sure the court and prosecutors have “blatantly” ignored legal procedures. It seems that extended periods of pre-trial and pre-conviction detention are authorized by the law and often used. As the Robert Cao, the chairman of UMC acidly pointed out earlier this year, CSB had a chance toi change the detention laws when he was president but didn’t. There is a certain justice in him suffering the same kind of arbitrary detention that other less famous people do. Cao spent months in detention (essentially solitary confinement) on charges of illegal investment in China. He was later found not guilty.
Having said that, I think the detention laws are draconian and a flagrant abuse of human rights left over from the martial law era.[/quote]
I disagree with this. In the first place I doubt many people were even aware of the pre-trial detention law and so can hardly be said to be hypocrites now for arguing for its abolishment.
Second, the use of the detention to keep ordinary citizens from fleeing or destroying evidence, something businessmen like Cao do all to often, is hardly of the same importance as its potential to wage politcial vendettas. Justice Minister Wang is a nutty partisan of a ruling party that has control over all five levels of government. That people are now worried that prosecutors have the power to detain politicians before elections, in any effort to stop them from running or simply to tar their reputation, is something that no one would have considered before. So, again, no hypocrisy as the Chen case has brought up the flaws in the system that were not evident before.
You know there were many changes to the justice system in Chen’s first term to bring more rights to the accused. As many saw the system as making steady advances it may not have seemed necessary to push for the change of the pre-trial detention laws as abuses would be mitigated by this better system. In many ways it was, as after 30 days in detention Chen was released. Two appeals by the prosecution were rejected as insufficient in their arguments. Great. The system was working fine. Of course the judge was simply replaced in the end and Chen went back into detention. Oops, the system has a few flaws still.
I think it is fair to say that Chen’s situation brought the issue of pre-trial detention to the public eye for the first time and also brought to light just how rife it is for exploitation. So, no, no hypocrisy.
Is there evidence of CSB detention because of political vendetta? In the news for the past 2 years we saw him blatantly use Presidental Immunity to stone wall the trail proceeding for his wife, not to mention his wife liberal use of “medical conditions” to avoid completing her trail, which is have been going on for 3 years now.
The court has combined their two trails into one now because they feel it was the same crime they are prosecuting.
Just seems a little unconvincing to say “political vendetta” and “human rights abuse” at this point. They had every opportunity to finish the trail prior to CSB leaving office and going into detention.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
I disagree with this. In the first place I doubt many people were even aware of the pre-trial detention law and so can hardly be said to be hypocrites now for arguing for its abolishment.
Second, the use of the detention to keep ordinary citizens from fleeing or destroying evidence, something businessmen like Cao do all to often, is hardly of the same importance as its potential to wage politcial vendettas. Justice Minister Wang is a nutty partisan of a ruling party that has control over all five levels of government. That people are now worried that prosecutors have the power to detain politicians before elections, in any effort to stop them from running or simply to tar their reputation, is something that no one would have considered before. So, again, no hypocrisy as the Chen case has brought up the flaws in the system that were not evident before.
You know there were many changes to the justice system in Chen’s first term to bring more rights to the accused. As many saw the system as making steady advances it may not have seemed necessary to push for the change of the pre-trial detention laws as abuses would be mitigated by this better system. In many ways it was, as after 30 days in detention Chen was released. Two appeals by the prosecution were rejected as insufficient in their arguments. Great. The system was working fine. Of course the judge was simply replaced in the end and Chen went back into detention. Oops, the system has a few flaws still.
I think it is fair to say that Chen’s situation brought the issue of pre-trial detention to the public eye for the first time and also brought to light just how rife it is for exploitation. So, no, no hypocrisy.[/quote]
Mucha Man, with all due respect, I strongly disagree.
Chen Shui Bian was tipped off into possible money laundering by the head of the very agency that normally would prosecute and follow up on such information. Your average citizen does not enjoy the privilege of being able to keep information passed on by law enforcement agencies private and confidential.
Your argument that somehow the detention law, would be used simply doesnt hold water. Chen Shui Bian is an exceptional case, and should it be applied to silence or keep other politicians out of power , the consequences of this would be supremely counterproductive.
I agree the swapping of judges was “iffy” but, given that Chen also used the system to his advantage, (see above), if you look at this objectively you will say, theres not much of a discovery process into why Chen Shui Bian is in court, very few people would try to argue his innocence, the judge may have been brought in to rubber stamp his detainment and future incarceration.
I read a letter in the Taipei times by a bunch of scholars, what a wimpy whiny letter it was. There is one issue that should be focused on in my opinion, which relates to Taiwan China relations. Why the hell are the opposition focusing thier efforts on defending a clearly corrupt ex president.
I’m not trying to argue Chen’s innocence. I am arguing that it was not hypocritical of people to suddenly focus on pre-trial detentions.
And changing judges was not iffy; it stank of political interference.
Other than that, I am not particularly interested in this case anymore until a verdict is reached or some new clever circus routine is performed.
monstersandcritics.com/news/ … GBaMhCUC&B
Honestly, how difficult can it be to prevent CSB from fleeing abroad? How about confiscating his passport? Placing him under house arrest?
He might co-operate better if they allow him to spend time with ailing wife. No?
Or perhaps the court fears the two of them might escape Taiwan unnoticed. Imagine that! The ex-president and ex-first lady (in a wheel chair) going through immigration without anyone recognising them. [/quote]
Hundreds of fishing boats leave the shores of Taiwan every day without the crew having to pass through immigration or use a passport.