CSB without counsel

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

[quote=“Mucha Man”]I’m not trying to argue Chen’s innocence. I am arguing that it was not hypocritical of people to suddenly focus on pre-trial detentions.

And changing judges was not iffy; it stank of political interference.

Other than that, I am not particularly interested in this case anymore until a verdict is reached or some new clever circus routine is performed.[/quote]

Well of course your not arguing Chen’s innocence. But are you really surprised to see political interference in the prosecution of an ex president? An ex president who is also using every ounce of political influence he has to influence the outcome. Honestly I sometimes wonder, the way the swapping of the judge is presented by the critics would have you believe, there was this nice unbiased judge with no political allegiances whatsoever who was making the “right” judgments, only to be replaced by a bad KMT stooge, a puppet for the Ma administration.

Chens trail will not be fair and balanced. Were that the case, he has more than enough political savvy and influence to derail and get the verdict he wants. The only way the KMT can get a guilty verdict is if they use political intervention even greater than that of Chen.

Finally, do you think Chen when he was in power, used political influence to prosecute his political rivals? If you think the answer to that is yes, you might also understand why people have less sympathy for his case of also being politically persecuted.

22

[quote=“Mick”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I’m not trying to argue Chen’s innocence. I am arguing that it was not hypocritical of people to suddenly focus on pre-trial detentions.

And changing judges was not iffy; it stank of political interference.

Other than that, I am not particularly interested in this case anymore until a verdict is reached or some new clever circus routine is performed.[/quote]

Well of course your not arguing Chen’s innocence. But are you really surprised to see political interference in the prosecution of an ex president? An ex president who is also using every ounce of political influence he has to influence the outcome. Honestly I sometimes wonder, the way the swapping of the judge is presented by the critics would have you believe, there was this nice unbiased judge with no political allegiances whatsoever who was making the “right” judgments, only to be replaced by a bad KMT stooge, a puppet for the Ma administration.

Chens trail will not be fair and balanced. Were that the case, he has more than enough political savvy and influence to derail and get the verdict he wants. The only way the KMT can get a guilty verdict is if they use political intervention even greater than that of Chen.

Finally, do you think Chen when he was in power, used political influence to prosecute his political rivals? If you think the answer to that is yes, you might also understand why people have less sympathy for his case of also being politically persecuted.[/quote]

It matters not a whit about the biases of the first judge. He twice looked at the argument from the prosecution that Chen was a flight risk and determined it was not sound. Since he was the presiding judge (and judges are chosen by lottery) there was no reason to replace him. This went against the normal procedures and has never been adequately explained except for the bogus argument that Chen and his wife should be tried by the same judge.

In any case, if you believe the whole system is rotten then Chen’s quilt or innocence is irrelevant since under such a system justice only serves to reinforce power. So count me uninterested in the result of a power struggle.

As for Chen using everything he has, I think you have it backwards. The KMT have been out to get him for years. The prosecutors office said they would resign if he was not found quilty. Chen needs to use all the influence he has to balance this obvious bias.

It’s a circus and everyone is acting like a clown.

23

Human rights are something that belong to everybody. It doesn’t matter whether you are a former President charged with corruption or a common criminal. You are still entitled to your human rights. These rights include the right to a fair trial and the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

It is worth noting that KMT politicians like James Soong and Ma Ying-jeou have also faced corruption charges, but neither has spent a single day in detention. The double standard is clear and obvious.

Let the courts decide the truth via a fair and impartial trial. At present the courts are not doing that. That is the root of the problem.

24

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
It matters not a whit about the biases of the first judge. [/quote]

It may not matter to you, but Im sure it mattered to the KMT. In fact, when the judge went against the prosecutes wishes to detain Chen, it seems they determined it was too much of a pro Chen stance so they decided to swap judges and then fudge the reasons.

The KMT want a conviction, the head of the Justice Ministry’s Investigations Bureau is already serving time for attempting to cover up alleged money laundering. It seems they got scared the presiding judge was politically aligned with Chen, so they swapped the judge.

Im not saying its right, the point I’m making is both sides are pulling as many stings as they can, only the KMT have considerable more pull than anything Chen has right now.

I think everyone watching the trial knows full well why the judge was changed. The KMT didn’t like the first one.

I dont think the system is totally rotten, I love Taiwan and think its a great place to live. The people are kind and the pluses far outweigh the minuses. But there you go again talking about Chens innocence, how can you even type that and keep a straight face. I was watching some marchers last week outside Sogo protesting Chens innocence. At the time I was in a packed buffet shop , and when that segment came on the entire shop roared with laughter and started shaking their heads.

Nothing is backwards. I already made clear, I accept the KMT have been out to get Chen and they have more clout. What is missing is your acknowledgment that the DPP and Chen in particular is no different. Had they had their way they would have got Ma, to pretend that Chen is just a normal citizen and the KMT should leave the process alone whilst pretending that Chen wont try and pull every stunt and political sting he can to get off is not being honest.

I think there is one clown that is head and shoulders above the rest.

25

[quote=“Mick”]…Nothing is backwards. I already made clear, I accept the KMT have been out to get Chen and they have more clout. What is missing is your acknowledgment that the DPP and Chen in particular is no different. Had they had their way they would have got Ma, to pretend that Chen is just a normal citizen and the KMT should leave the process alone whilst pretending that Chen wont try and pull every stunt and political sting he can to get off is not being honest.
[/quote]

Mick, who did Chen or his admin hound and put in detention among the KMT bigwigs? Soong was investigated for stealing hundreds of millions of NT and later charged with tax evasion. Like Chen he was wiring money to relatives overseas. Ma went to court and was found not quilty. Neither man spent a day in detention.

Soong also won a court ruling against Chen for defamation of character. I don’t see any evidence that Chen had the contol over the juctice system you seem to think he had.

Whether in an alternate universe where the DPP controlled the courts they would have abused their powers is a bit of specious speculation I do not care to address. It’s a bit like the torture debate. I want to argue and discuss what did happen and what is happening, not might might have, or what might possibly be justified in a hypothetical situation. Though like I said, I am really not interested in debating this. Chen is a scumbag, but the justice system is also on trial here. I’m waiting to see what happens. At the moment there is not much worth discussing.

26

But the fundimental difference between James Soong and MYJ cases, as compared to CSB, is that they actually respected the courts enough to complete their trail process.

CSB is being treated differently, because he and his family have shown nothing but contempt for the judicial system.

When did MYJ ever behave as poorly as CSB when faced with corruption charges? Did MYJ try to delay his case indefinitely? Did MYJ go on hunger strikes and seek medical attention to avoid court dates? Did MYJ make implied threats to other pan-Blue politicians in the media, by himself or through proxy, when faced with corrupted charges?

It just seems logical that if one wishes to treated like others under similar circumstances, than one has to behave in a similar manner. One can’t expect to behave like CSB and expect the courts and opposition to treat them like MYJ.

27

[quote=“ac_dropout”]But the fundimental difference between James Soong and MYJ cases, as compared to CSB, is that they actually respected the courts enough to complete their trail process.

CSB is being treated differently, because he and his family have shown nothing but contempt for the judicial system.

When did MYJ ever behave as poorly as CSB when faced with corruption charges? Did MYJ try to delay his case indefinitely? Did MYJ go on hunger strikes and seek medical attention to avoid court dates? Did MYJ make implied threats to other pan-Blue politicians in the media, by himself or through proxy, when faced with corrupted charges?

It just seems logical that if one wishes to treated like others under similar circumstances, than one has to behave in a similar manner. One can’t expect to behave like CSB and expect the courts and opposition to treat them like MYJ.[/quote]

Then again, was Ma Yingjiu held there prior to charges being filed and was he imprisoned during the trial? You are trying to compare the treatment of the two, but the judicial system is not treating the two the same. Your implication that this is because of Chen’s behavior is silly. At the beginning of this banana republic process the KMT is presiding over, Chen made every court appearance, yet he was STILL remanded into custody prior to charges being filed. Your comparison of the two reeks of partisan dishonesty in the extreme.

28

I’ve always admired the Japanese with their “bushido” spirit, ritual suicide (hari-kari) and honour. I don’t think CSB would have the balls to do what former South Korean President Roh did. Not in a bloody second…interesting how the DPP in Taiwan vs the KMT and the Korean opposition vs the GNP came to power as “corruption” busters only to become just as corrupt as the political entities they criticized. Hypocrites. At least Roh ended it honourably instead of continuing the circus day after day.

theglobeandmail.com/news/wor … le1150649/

29

or maybe he was jumped…

30

[quote=“wix”]Human rights are something that belong to everybody. It doesn’t matter whether you are a former President charged with corruption or a common criminal. You are still entitled to your human rights. These rights include the right to a fair trial and the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

It is worth noting that KMT politicians like James Soong and Ma Ying-jeou have also faced corruption charges, but neither has spent a single day in detention. The double standard is clear and obvious.

Let the courts decide the truth via a fair and impartial trial. At present the courts are not doing that. That is the root of the problem. [/quote]

I beg to differ. The root of the problem is political corruption. I would be happy to see every single corrupt politician taken to court and prosecuted.

The fact there has been a string of other politicians that avoided any charges being bought, got off or were given light sentences only illustrates how slippery a politician is to prosecute and to what ends they will go to weasel their way out of jail.

Chen as President for 8 years, even by his own admission says he had solid proof that Lee Tung Hui was also corrupt, but chose to cover it up. Then followed suit by doing the very same. Even when it became so obvious, except to brain dead donkies of his corruption and calls for him to step down. He got in front of the camera and lied straight to everyone in this country. He is someone that rather see the entire country plunged into chaos than man up and face his charges.

He is a criminal that wants to be seen as a political target. His antics , hunger strikes, encouraging marches to protest his innocence will not detract from the fact he his a criminal, and those Chen supporters that even now keep calling this political persecution, marching for Chens innocence or protesting his political persecution, are as dumb as the supporters who came rushing out in defense of Chen after his national speech, telling everyone who they were sold by what he had to say. Still gullible enough to play along to the master manipulators music, and I might add doing a massive disservice to the actual cause they supposedly support, even Annette Lu and others have seen the effect this is having.

31

[quote=“Mick”]I beg to differ. The root of the problem is political corruption. I would be happy to see every single corrupt politician taken to court and prosecuted.

The fact there has been a string of other politicians that avoided any charges being bought, got off or were given light sentences only illustrates how slippery a politician is to prosecute and to what ends they will go to weasel their way out of jail.[/quote]

I would also be happy to see “every single corrupt politician taken to court and prosecuted.” However, it is important that every single one of these corrupt politicians also gets a fair trial and is not subject to unnecessary detention. If justice is pursued at the expense of human rights then it undermines the whole system.

It was inevitable the judicial system in Taiwan would be in the spotlight when Chen went on trial. It had a great responsibility to conduct the trial to the highest standards and set an example for future trials of corrupt politicians. It has failed miserably. Taiwan is no closer to genuinely dealing with the issue of corruption in politics than it was when Chen’s trial started.

32

[quote=“wix”]
I would also be happy to see “every single corrupt politician taken to court and prosecuted.” However, it is important that every single one of these corrupt politicians also gets a fair trial and is not subject to unnecessary detention. If justice is pursued at the expense of human rights then it undermines the whole system.

It was inevitable the judicial system in Taiwan would be in the spotlight when Chen went on trial. It had a great responsibility to conduct the trial to the highest standards and set an example for future trials of corrupt politicians. It has failed miserably. Taiwan is no closer to genuinely dealing with the issue of corruption in politics than it was when Chen’s trial started.[/quote]

I think thats a fair comment. But you have to know, the vast majority of people do no want to let Chen off the hook, the idea he gets to enjoy and gloat over his ill gotten gains, and yet another corrupt politician gets to pull strings and benefit from privileges the ordinary citizen wouldn’t, is some what galling.

You seem to think his detention is unnecessary? Maybe it is, there is a good argument to suggest otherwise. That Chen is involved in concealing his involvement in money laundering is not even a question. Hence certain individuals already spending time in prison.

I thought the timing of putting him in prison was interesting, which happened just a few days after riots. At the time the DPP had said the riots were caused by KMT stooges, and while I agree it made no sense to have the DPP instigate them it made a lot more sense for them to have been started by Chen Shui Bian, who stood far more to gain out of movement of social unrest. Indeed when the protests began, all the big leaders of the DPP stayed clear, their absence was quite notable in where the motivating force behind the protests was coming from.

There is the issue of how Ma is handling relations with China, but its like the DPP have cried wolf once too many times and can’t get the public concern that indeed is deserving. When they do manage to get a few raised eyebrows they follow it up with a comment about Chen Shui Bians political persecution, which has everyone immediately switch off and has people back to dismissing out of hand what the DPP have to say.

33

What about forms of corruption that are not illegal? There are dozens of them, and the system seems to be design to be explored by everyone. Maybe, simply there is no way to play the game without being “corrupt”. Also, when politicians are able to receive “political donations”, it is hard to draw the line where donation ends and bribing starts.

34

I agree, stamping out systemic corruption is a massive challenge. I do think Taiwan has made significant improvements, a democratic form of government with transfer of power provides a good check and balance to ruling parties. So overall I have a optimistic view.

England has been going through a series of scandals where the MP’s were misusing their expense accounts, technically legal, but hard to justify as not being anything less than charging the tax payer for anything and everything they could think of. People, do not like to see this and want those representatives who they vote to serve them exposed, the English are currently expressing disgust at these MP’s and rightly so.

In short, and not limited to Taiwan, I am for a transparency of where elected officials money is coming from, as well as positions they also represent that might be a conflict of interest also being declared.

Now, if you go over to China, it is part of the system, much more so than in Taiwan. In my personal opinion, this corruption is going to create huge problems in Chinas continued development, the reasons are long subject in themselves. Needless to say, corruption is a bad thing.

Nothing would please our ex leader of taiwan more than to be regarded as a martyr, for people to think of him in the same light as Aung San Suu Kyi, Nelson Mandela or Mahatma Gandhi. He is no such thing, and that is what irks me about those shrills bleating about “political persecution” . He was a greedy grubby money grabber, who squandered a historic opportunity , let down an entire nation (in particular so many in the DPP who sacrificed so much) and is a criminal who was caught with his hand in the till.

I wonder what happened to those DPP members who were drummed out of the DPP for daring to say they should not support the clearly corrupt president? Didn’t seem like a very democratic thing for them to have done, as it seemed to me they were expressing an intelligent point of view at the time.

35

Mick, would you care to comment on who these people are and what is their political background? The biggest flight risk is one Jeffrey Koo who actually did flee the country for two years and yet on his return was released and simply told not to leave the country. Not surprisingly Koo is a member of a family with long ties to the KMT. It is the height of absurdity that Chen is detained for accpeting bribes, but people who admittedly bribed him, but are on the rigth side of the political fence, are getting off scott free.

Chen is a criminal. His trial is being used to discredit the independence/opposition movement. These statements are not contradictory.

36

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
Mick, would you care to comment on who these people are and what is their political background? The biggest flight risk is one Jeffrey Koo who actually did flee the country for two years and yet on his return was released and simply told not to leave the country. Not surprisingly Koo is a member of a family with long ties to the KMT. It is the height of absurdity that Chen is detained for accpeting bribes, but people who admittedly bribed him, but are on the rigth side of the political fence, are getting off scott free.

Chen is a criminal. His trial is being used to discredit the independence/opposition movement. These statements are not contradictory.[/quote]

I was thinking of the head of the Justice Ministry’s Investigations Bureau, but i do know what you mean. In fact I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject. My understanding is pretty much anyone who has been accused of anything is being let off so long as they testify “Chen made me do it”

The point I am making is this. As a strategy for the DPP, having protesters at the recent rally or including the subject in a letter to president Ma, either claiming Chens innocence or calling attention to the judicial process is not a good strategy.

In my opinion there are much more important issues than just Chen, so it annoys me that the focus of the opposition still remains on this one man. But perhaps you may convince me otherwise, I am open minded, if it sounds reasonable, I assure you I will not only admit I am wrong, but support your views more ardently in future.

37

The KMT and the government will not also shift focus out of Chen, because that is also on their interest. Anything goes wrong in Taiwan, Chen still gets the blame, even 1 year of him being out of the presidence and big part of it in jail…

38

[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“ludahai”][quote=“ABC-Law”]I don’t see it as a matter of forgiving CSB for his “alleged” crimes. In my opinion, if he is found guilty, let him rot in jail for the rest of his life or hang him if the law allows it. To me, it wouldn’t make a difference.

What many people are protesting against is the blatant disregard for legal procedures by the prosecutors and the court. Civil and criminal procedural laws were enacted for the purpose of protecting individual rights in legal proceedings, but in CSB’s case, these laws are not being followed. We have seen legal professionals come out and say that the prosecutors and the court have violated the very laws that they are supposed to protect.

Hopefully, if CSB is found guilty, he will be put in jail for a long long time. This will serve as precedence to other politicians here that the legal system will not put up with that crap.[/quote]

Very well said.[/quote]

Can you guys please describe a few civil or criminal procedural laws that are being violated in this case? I’m not arguing; I seriously don’t know the facts and if the judge or prosecutors are disregarding or violating laws, I’d be very interested to know precisely what laws you’re referrring to, what the particular laws say, and how they’re being violated. Thanks.[/quote]

ludahai? ABC-Law? Care to back up your allegation that the court and prosecutors are blatantly violating laws in this case?

Anyone else? Can you identify a specific law that has been violated in Chen’s prosecution and explain how it was violated? Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative; I admit I’m not so familiar with the facts, so I’m curious whether there’s any truth to that allegation. . . . or not.

39

If that is the point you are making, I agree with it entirely. It is a terrible strategy, but my understanding of the last protest is that there was a large effort by Tsai and others to distance themselves from Chen as much as possible. I see the momentum there and I hope it will continue. Chen’s cabal was an important one in the DPP, but hardly the only one.

I think the majority of people who still support Chen are poor, and not terribly educated. They are the type who make folk heroes out of criminals the world over. It’s just in most cases they are seen as the fringe element they are (much like those who still believe in Soong, or that Chen shot himself, for that matter - which not incidentally includes the current Justice Minister). Here, the blue media wishes to portray them as the rank and file of the party and of course Chen is eager to exploit them as well. Let’s hope for a speedy trial, an unambiguous pronouncement of quilt, and for the party to continue on the road to sanity.

40

[quote=“Mother Theresa”][ludahai? ABC-Law? Care to back up your allegation that the court and prosecutors are blatantly violating laws in this case?

Anyone else? Can you identify a specific law that has been violated in Chen’s prosecution and explain how it was violated? Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative; I admit I’m not so familiar with the facts, so I’m curious whether there’s any truth to that allegation. . . . or not.[/quote]

If you look at the original quote, ABC-law said “blatant disregard for legal procedures by the prosecutors and the court”. Subtle difference, but he did NOT say they were breaking the law. Even so, the laws as they are on the books are a blatant violation of standard international civil rights practice in democratic states that generally respect human rights.