Dealing with response to sexual harassment

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

We had an incident a while back where a male teacher had lost sight of what was appropriate behaviour towards female office staff. The ‘banter’ got a little out of hand and he said something that caused offense. I noticed that the lady in question didn’t take it too well and took her aside to ask her how she felt - answer “not good.”

Sigh. As soon as the guy came out of his classroom I went looking for him. One of the other secretaries got to him first and he was already horrified at what he had done, but I added my opinion/warning and he trotted off to aplogise straight away. As he wasn’t sure she believed him he came in the next day - his day off - with a big bunch of flowers and gave a pretty convincing show of being really really sorry.

I consulted a female friend who knows him better than I do, and was reassured that he is guilty of being thoughtless, or tasteless at worst, but is a good guy and harmless. Since then he hasn’t put a foot wrong, and I thought that was the end of the matter. However…

Last night another teacher made a slightly suggestive, childish, comment to the same girl. One of the other female staff put him down, but it was all very good-natured and not really serious to require a warning. He has managed not to upset anybody in the three months he’s been here and nobody seemed to have a problem with it this time.

But 30 minutes later I find the girl outside, sobbing in the arms of another secretary. She started shouting at me that I didn’t do enough the first time and I don’t “control” the teachers enough. They went away for an hour or so to cry and rant.

I was amazed. What exactly does she expect? Repeat/serious offenders need to be dealt with seriously, but one small transgression gets a warning in my book. I feel like she’s making a mountain out of a molehill, but how to tell her that without appearing callous and sexist?

She’s a pretty, flirty girl with a good figure - and she knows it. When it suits her she’s happy to bounce around the office laughing and joking with the boys. She seems to enjoy the attention most of the time, but if you say the wrong thing there is apparently no grey area between joking and crying.

what do I do?

2

What was actually said?

3

Short answer. Unless she can accept that foreign English teachers generally have not been in Taiwan long enough to understand the culture regarding office banter (sexual undertones or whatever), she must be more thick-skinned.
Also, teachers ought to be briefed before starting work about some of the finer points of how far to tease and when to cease.
By the way, just because she seems to be a flirt sometimes and seems to know that she has a dymamite body does not indicate that she has more than a child’s emotional development.
Cram schools are notorious for the clashes of culture that can reduce a “traditional” girl to tears. It is not a place for the goodiest of goodie-two shoes.

4

(Misogynist Sandman): I’d quietly warn your male staff that you have a cocktease in the office who dishes it out but can’t take it, and that if she complains to you, you’ll have no choice but to take some kind of action.
(Touchy-Feely PC Sandman): I’d tell prospective employees that inappropriate behaviour of any kind is strictly taboo and subject to disciplinary action – and that includes “flirty” behaviour on the part of the huapings.

5

Don’t sweat it Stragbasher,
From what you wrote, I’m assuming it’s just a bit of sexual banter; not some sleazeball hitting on the girls and feeling them up. Be honest, tell her that you think it’s not that serious but that you regret that “the incident” took place. Depending on what others in the office are saying, you could talk to the teachers about toning it down a little.

6

It seems to me like there’s fault on both sides here:

  • on the one side no-one should ever be made to feel uncomfortable in their work-place;
  • but on the other the girl needs to understand that her actions/ behaviour (as you have described them) have played a part/ caused those comments to come her way (I’m thinking it’s no surprise that the same person was involved twice).

Stragbasher it sounds to me like you’ve handled the situation as best you can, :notworthy: , and it’s certainly not an easy one! Maybe it’s time to have a word to this girl and explain, (while trying not to make it sound like an accusation), her part in all this.

7

You need to lay down the line for everyone involved. Anymore flirting at work, anymore twirling of one’s meat at work,and people will be fired.

8

Pull a Clarence Thomas and ask her if she put “pubic hair” on the coke can.

:sunglasses:

9

What :astonished: What is awful advice. You may feel that way but never tell the person who feels harrassed thats it’s not that serious. Sexual harrassment is serious.

Let her know that you’ve talked to the guys and the situation has been delt with. But also let her know that how she carries herself is also a reflection on how others will treat her.

10

Just some general thoughts:

-What was said is important - some things might not seem a big deal to the person saying them but can have a bigger impact than intended

-Yes, she seems to have contributed to the behaviour, and I agree with Wolf that it doesn’t necessarily mean she can handle the fallout. Also, I don’t know how Taiwanese men might have reacted to a similar flirtatiousness, or indeed whether she would have acted the same way around them - there could be a cultural aspect where she would never expect to hear that kind of sentiment, even in fun (and I am assuming she is a local). Age is another thing - she sounds young, and again not completely aware of how she might present herself.

  • Not of much help now, but I think the thing that should have been done after the first incident (and may have been done) is to sit with her and make sure there wasn’t any residual hard feeling from it. Obviously there was, and this contributed to the strength of the second reaction. Just because she acted like everything was OK doesn’t mean it was. She didn’t want to kick up a fuss and risk her job, possibly. I’m sure the guy really was sorry - it’s just that explaining about her behaviour and why it might ‘invite’ such comment might have helped her avoid it a second time, or at least prepared her for it happening again.

  • I think all you can do now is get an apology from him (regardless of whether you feel it is actually warranted) and talk to her about her behaviour and how Western men (or hell, possibly just ‘men’) interpret her behaviour. DON’T make her feel like she ‘deserved it’ - be neutral, or lay the blame on the evil dirty-minded foreigners who really mean well :slight_smile: . However, don’t be surprised if she nods and appears to understand and take it well, but then suddenly quits on you without warning.

In retrospect, this just seems like a summary of everyone else’s advice :slight_smile:

11

Sexual harassment cases are difficult to deal with because they are not ‘objective’ - they are entirely dependent upon the subjective feelings of the victim. If I steal $100 from persons A and B, then both people are objectively equal victims of the same physically provable crime. If I say, “Wow, you looking totally hot today!” to A and she isn’t bothered by the comment, there’s no sexual harassment. If I make the same comment to B, and she breaks down and cries, that’s sexual harassment. Of course, there are plenty of things a man could say or do that objectively constitute sexual harassment (feeling the secretary up, making rude blatantly sexual comments, etc.) but in lots of cases there’s a massive grey area.

Of course, since Strag hasn’t said what specifically was said to the girl, we can’t really say much for sure.

(Anyway, this sounds like her first office job, isn’t it? Working in a Taiwanese office with Taiwanese males, she’d have had to put up with a lot worse, in the local office culture.)

12

I know that my comments are going to possibly get me flamed but I think stragbasher should find some way to can this girl. She’s a tease who can dish it out but can’t take it.

How is some guy suppose to know that he has went too far in his comments with a girl who is described as the following: “pretty, flirty girl with a good figure - and she knows it. When it suits her she’s happy to bounce around the office laughing and joking with the boys. She seems to enjoy the attention most of the time, but if you say the wrong thing there is apparently no grey area between joking and crying.”

This girl obviously doesn’t have the ability to discern that her behaviour is at the root of the problem and, as a result, problems like the ones described in the original post are going to keep happening.

Stragbasher, why keep this girl around? We live in a time when people sue for the slighest thing and keeping this girl around is opening youself up to a possible lawsuit which could damage your company’s reputation, and cost you a chunk of money.

My advice is that you need to protect yourself. Thus, get rid of the girl and save yourself some possibly big future headaches.

(Damn, I hope I don’t get flamed for this because I really do think sexual harassment is a terrible thing but I think this girl is egging on these guys).

13

[quote=“cableguy”]I know that my comments are going to possibly get me flamed but I think stragbasher should find some way to can this girl. She’s a tease who can dish it out but can’t take it.

How is some guy suppose to know that he has went too far in his comments[/quote]

I’m not the flaming type, but I’d like to point out that there are some guys who would never, ever make a comment that might be at risk of ‘going too far’ even when faced with a flirtatious, attractive woman. I might even use the old-fashioned word, ‘gentlemen’. OK, there are some extreme women who might find ‘you’re looking nice today’ offensive, but I don’t think that’s the situation we’re dealing with here. Something was said, and it was clearly offensive enough that other secretaries took her part in both cases.

She could adopt the attitude of a frosty bitch and dress in a burqa just to be on the safe side, but do you really want someone like that working for you? Why is it all the woman’s fault? Are men genetically incapable of refraining from making risque comments? (Could we at least make that one a ‘maybe’, guys?)

Sure, she seems unable to work out that she’s contributing to the problem, and that’s why someone should tell her. I’m not ruling out the possibility she could be a genuine psycho - but I’m not ruling out the possibility the guy actually, you know, went too far. If she was genuinely ‘egging on’ these guys, as you put it… why on earth would she be upset?

14

If you have the ability to move one person so they can no longer interact with the other person is your best bet if you don’t wish for this behavior to continue.

Change their schedules or move one of them to another office.

If that is not possible I fear you might need to let one of them go. Since it becomes a burden on management. I assume both positions are replaceable since neither one of them has been there very long.

It sounds like a you got yourself quite the office flower and a horny bee.

15

[quote=“daasgrrl”][quote=“cableguy”]I know that my comments are going to possibly get me flamed but I think stragbasher should find some way to can this girl. She’s a tease who can dish it out but can’t take it.

How is some guy suppose to know that he has went too far in his comments[/quote]

I’m not the flaming type, but [quote]I’d like to point out that there are some guys who would never, ever make a comment that might be at risk of ‘going too far’ even when faced with a flirtatious, attractive woman. I might even use the old-fashioned word, ‘gentlemen’.[/quote]

Of course you are right. I like to think that I am one of these gentlemen types who would not make inappropriate comments simply because the lady in question is “flirtatious and attractive.” However, can we really blame a guy who goes too far in his comments when dealing with such a woman? Guys and gals flirt with each other and an inappropriate comment is made. The guy “made a slightly suggestive, childish, comment to the same girl. One of the other female staff put him down, but it was all very good-natured and not really serious to require a warning.” However, it sounds like this girl was inconsolable which I find rather confusing. She was playing the game, got hurt, the guy was put in his place by another employee and that should have been the end of it. If a girl can’t accept this then she should not be playing the flirting game to begin with.

Actually, this girl may be correct that the comment was not acceptable or was even offensive. However, I am under the impression that she is partially to blame. I would love to know what the guy said so a much better decision could be made as to whether the guy was way out of line or if he simply made a stupid comment.

Speaking as a guy, I think that men usually don’t go around making risque comments to just any or every woman they meet. (There are some guys who do this but they are clowns masquerading as men). In reality, gals who flirt with guys and use their sexuality to tease guys, which this girl seems to do, are setting themselves up to get a reaction from the ones they are teasing. Unfortunately, sometime comments will be made which are clearly inappropriate but it happens. However, if the woman refrained from acting in a way which caused such comments to occur in the first place, then she would have a much better claim of sexual harassment. If you tease a dog, he may wag his tail or he may bite you. If a gal “teases” a guy, he may make a innocent comment or he may make a comment that is crude. It all depends on the guy but the girl has to know that if she plays the game, things may turn out differently than she expected.

She is obviously either too immature or not intelligent enough to see that she is causing some guys to make comments to her that she finds to be offensive.

Thus, I think the stragbasher should get rid of the girl because, as I said before, he is possibly setting himself up for big problems keeping her around. Since it is impossible for this girl and male teachers to avoid each other, then it is best to get rid of her and not take the chance that he will have a big, and quite possibly expensive, headache in the future.

16

I used to have to deal with this sort of problem a bit. There’s usually a huge cultural gap between foreign teachers and the Taiwanese office/TA staff. Really they don’t understand where the other side is coming form half the time. The language gap usually makes this worse. Foreign teachers usually think the ‘office girls’ understand their jokes a lot more than they really do.

I’ve worked for SB for just a month and only part time. I don’t know the teachers he’s talking about, and don’t want to, although I can guess which girl it is. I don’t want to seem like I have some sort of ‘superior knowledge’, but I think I know Taiwanese women/office girls better than the foreign teachers there, and I really think that they don’t realise how little of their ‘joking’ some of the girls really understand. I think the girls are a bit more sensitive than the guys realise and their ‘flirty talk’ is kind of defensive. Hard to explain properly, but point is I think it’s not really a case of fault lying with either side, but your classic old ‘cultural gap’. If the problem persists, I’d suggest just telling the teachers outright DO NOT flirt with the staff.

Brian

17

Bu Lai En,

Since you’ve been in the office. Do the people flirt or joke in Chinese or English there?

I’ve observed office antics in Taiwan before. But since I work usually in an all Chinese Taiwanese language environment. There is usually no mistakes about when “yellow gun” has gone too far. Since it is just simply matter of conveying that to the offensive person in simple and plain language.

I could see some problems arising if the they are communiticating in language where the other party may not have cultural acclimation to.

18

The office banter is all in English.

That’s where the problems are coming from.

Brian

19

The answer to this is still ‘yes’. It depends on the exact nature of what was said. Put it this way. Would you use the same argument if the charge was sexual assault? Are we going to go back to - oh, but from the way she dressed and acted, I thought it’s what she wanted, Your Honor? It’s a more extreme example of the same logic. Can we blame the guy? Yes. I’ve never argued that she didn’t contribute - it’s quite clear she did. However, wrong is still wrong on the guy’s behalf - it is supposedly an office environment, after all - and I don’t see why SHE should be the one to shoulder ALL the blame by being canned over it.

And I think Brian has a very good point about cultural differences - one could equally argue how was she to know that a foreigner would make such a ‘disgusting’ (in her view) comment to her through what she thinks is friendliness? This is all a spin game. Only the people who actually know these people have a clear view of the situation. It seems like she was ‘inconsolable’ over such a harmless comment because the first situation had never been fully resolved.

[quote]It all depends on the guy but the girl has to know that if she plays the game, things may turn out differently than she expected.
[/quote]

I agree up to a point, but again, it’s a matter of degree. How much physical ‘teasing’ can a man be expected to put up with before ‘he can hardly be blamed’ for sexual assault? If you agree that it’s never acceptable, then there is a line somewhere. Some blue comments might be acceptable, some are clearly not, no matter what her behaviour. Obviously ‘her’ line is drawn in a different place from ‘his’ line.

Advocating ‘getting rid of her’ implies she is the sole source of the problem. She’s not, unless she is actively groping the male teachers or making suggestive comments when they just want next month’s schedule. What’s the matter with just talking to her about it?

20

Let’s say, the girls only fault is to have a great body and not to wear a burqa. Let’s say here behaviour is not especially flirty, but she just tries to fit into the working environment by being a friendly and happy person, which unfortunatly has been interpreted as flirty by the male staff of the school. Is it her fault than, that some male teachers started to make sexual comments about her appearance? I don’t think so, but then again…

…let’s say the guys just made stupid jokes, went a little too far with their commments and the girl, being Taiwnese and not knowing how to deal with this, took it a little too personal and interpreted it as sexual harrasment. I suppose a western girl would have just laught together with the guys without taking it serious or if really offended shouted at the guys and told them to back up instead of taking it personal and starting to cry…

I suggest stragbasher should ask the teachers to refrain from any comments on an other persons appearance or the like and also try to make the girl understand that she shouldn’t take everything too personal that comes out of the mouth of a silly foreign teacher.