Let me ask a slightly different question then… Which cities work? Now I mean to pose the question more from Tigerman’s point regarding Pittsburg. Who has been to a formerly industrial city that has successfully made the transition to a tourist or retail or service city while improving its quality of life, you know the riverwalks, etc. and why?
Fred,
That’s "Pittsburgh. We are the only “burg” in the US with an “h”, making us the only “burgh”.
Years ago, the US Federal Government attempted to harmonize all maps and changed the name of all the burghs to burgs. Only Pittsburgh refused to change and after about 20 years, the Feds gave up.
There is a Pittsburg, Kansas and a Pittsburg, California. But they sure ain’t anything to talk about. 
Who has been to:
St. Louis, MO
Chicago, IL
Detroit, MI
Cincinatti, OH
Louisville, KY
PittsburgH, PA
Philadelphia, PA
New Haven CT
Springfield MA
Bridgeport CT
Baltimore MD
Wilmington DE
I am going to deliberately leave off cities like Gary IN because I do not believe that there was ever a history of architecture worth saving or a lakewalk worth preserving though I could be wrong.
Also for the Brits, who has been to:
Nottingham
Sheffield
Leeds
Manchester
Liverpool
Glasgow
Belfast
Leicester
Newcastle
Birmingham
I again am going to leave off cities like Bradford, Stoke on Trent just because to my knowledge even in their industrial heyday they were never much to crow about.
Who’s got a plan? Who’s doing well? Who is failing? Why?
I personally find that Detroit is a mess. The Renaissance Center is an isolated island in the midst of nothing. The great buildings of the late 19th and early 20th century have just been razed. Pity since Detroit was one of the US great industrial cities with the architecture to match.
They are everywhere - in no particular order, I have visited Melbourne (Oz); Birmingham (UK); Milan (Italy)… (still never been to the US, though) a good question is to look at those places that resisted hollowing out and see how they have done : Osaka, springs to mind.
Generally, deindustrialisation, although it brings short-term problems, leads to greater efficiency in business. That frees up capital and labour for new goods and services. The original products are still made - just more cheaply elsewhere*. They can import them in exchange for the new goods and services they produce. At the same time, their investment overseas increases income overseas, which naturally increases the demand for their new exports.
Overall, incomes tend to rise in both places.
Deindustrialisation also leads to a cleaner environment in the deindustrialising area. (Before anyone jumps in here - yes, it leads to a dirtier one in the industrialising area, but they are mostly willing to pay the price for the extra income generated.)
- At its most basic level, trade between countries is no different to trade between, say, San Francisco and New York. Just as SF and NY both benefit from specialising IT investment in one area and finance in another, so countries can also benefit if one specialises in producing shoes and another in weapons of mass destruction… err… no, I meant refrigerators.
They are everywhere - in no particular order, I have visited Melbourne (Oz); Birmingham (UK); Milan (Italy)… (still
never been to the US
, though) a good question is to look at those places that resisted hollowing out and see how they have done : Osaka, springs to mind.
Generally, deindustrialisation, although it brings short-term problems, leads to greater efficiency in business. That frees up capital and labour for new goods and services. The original products are still made - just more cheaply elsewhere*. They can import them in exchange for the new goods and services they produce. At the same time, their investment overseas increases income overseas, which naturally increases the demand for their new exports.
Overall, incomes tend to rise in both places.
Deindustrialisation also leads to a cleaner environment in the deindustrialising area. (Before anyone jumps in here - yes, it leads to a dirtier one in the industrialising area, but they are mostly willing to pay the price for the extra income generated.)
- At its most basic level, trade between countries is no different to trade between, say, San Francisco and New York. Just as SF and NY both benefit from specialising IT investment in one area and finance in another, so countries can also benefit if one specialises in producing shoes and another in weapons of mass destruction… err… no, I meant refrigerators.[/quote]
IMYBF,
That little tidbit above explains so much. You are so very forgiven.
As to why.
I think entrepreneurial spirit has a lot to do with it. Those countries where it is no shame to go bankrupt probably do better. (Maybe that is why Japan moves so slowly.)
I think more open cities probably do better too - more people moving in and out, from different backgrounds, are likely to generate more novel ideas. (For evidence of this, just compare, say, Birmingham to Osaka even tho’ Osaka is a port!)
I think also, it requires a certain level of intelligent Government intervention - the infrastructure that suits manufacturing may not suit a consumer/service centre. (However, in places like the UK, much of the needed infrastructure development has been privately financed.)
I guess a certain spirit of experimentation and frivolity doesn’t go amiss. Am I the only one who likes the half-zebra on TunHwa North road?
I guess I would like to bring this back a bit to restoration and transformation in an architectural sense. Which cities are beautiful and have created nice living spaces out of the ramshackle decrepit inner cities or industrial areas? How did they do it? Why do you like it? How are the elements human? etc. etc.
[quote=“Alleycat”]IMYBF,
That little tidbit above explains so much. You are so very forgiven.
[/quote]
I thought you’d like that.
Let me just now ruin my new-found street credibility by saying:
I admire the US very much and hope to go to New york at the earliest possible opportunity.
And I was so close to respectability…
Well, there has to have been interesting architecture there to begin with. For what its worth, Prince Charles has stated that the diverse architecture in Pittsburgh is fascinating and very well preserved.
I think there must be a balance between preservation and livability. I mean, its one thing to desire preservation and another thing to require absolute preservation. In Pittsburgh, many buildings and homes have been preserved in ways that allow the occupants or owners to enjoy use in a modern way. Contrastingly, the poor folks who own real estate on Ti Hua street in Taipei are apparently (afaik) prohibited from making any improvements that will change the buildings. But those buildings are quite old and in some instances, in sad states of disrepair.
IMO, renovation should be permitted if the same retains the basic structure and or facade characteristics. I mean, when looking at an old building in disrepair that people are wringing their hands over with respect to how to fix it, I always think about what the original builders would likely do if they were faced with that problem… They’d fix it.
Fair enough - I was “off on one a bit…”
Edinburgh
A fair bit has been done in UK’s Newcastle… also, I like some of the new stuff built in Melbourne.
It helps if you can preserve some of the old buildings, I think. Look at the difference between, say, Manchester and Seoul. Both dreary in their own way - Manchester in an old, majestic, funky way; Seoul in a well… dreary way. (Though I admit that the Olympics helped them to build some good sports facilities - nice bycicle/rollerblading path down by the Han River.)
If you have a sense of humour the new stuff can’t be too bad (back to the demi-Zebra again.) The French are pretty good at this (glass pyramids outside the Louvre.) The English, not so much - except when some eccentric is sticking a huge plastic shark nose-first into the roof of his terrace house. (Charlie-boy a bit stuffy for my liking.)
I think it was Tim Rice who said something like: “You know, when they were first building the pyramids in Gisa (Gyza? Geesah???), I bet some idiot was complaining that they were a ‘bloody eye-sore.’”
I’d add Cape Town to the list of beautiful cities. But then again I’m biased.
Alley Cat:
No offense but the first time I was in Capetown was much better than the last. I find the city creaking a way toward the same kind of crime that Johnannesburg used to have. Cannot walk around too much in Sea Point at night anymore ditto for Green Point? Green Point. Yes, I think that is the name. We just stay buried out in Camp’s Bay or farther south. Everyone else is fleeing for the suburbs. Very aggressive panhandling. This brings up a good point. How much is crime control a key factor in rescuing failing cities. I know that Giuliani was credited with making NYC safe again and then the tourists came. Likewise, get a little bad press and say good bye to those fat, madras short wearing sunglass donning yahoos from the hinterland.
I think that Port Elizabeth could do with some urban renewal. What is with that highway cutting off the ocean from the city. That is just what I am talking about. Ugh.
The land the highway is built on was never there to begin with Fred; it’s all reclaimed, and was once the largest piece of land of its kind anywhere. For many years now, there’s been talk of doing a Boston and going underground, thereby freeing up a lot of valuable commercial space. Sadly this has never come to fruition. And I don’t think it ever will as money dried up and part of the highway was never really completed anyway.
As to the crime, yes you are correct, after returning to Cape Town at the end of a two-year stint in London, an extremely safe city for its size I may add, I feared for my life at every turn.
I did not like the feeling and was one of the reasons I came to Taiwan.
However, Cape Town is still a wonderful outdoor city, where one is never short of ideas on a glorious Sunday afternoon.
or is it Buitenverwachtung… I think the latter. Ever head out to this place near Groot Constantia? Very nice wine, very nice food. Though I am not sure but rumors were spreading around that some guy died there. Nice day. A big branch fell off the oak tree and crushed him and killed his dog too. Then again a somewhat Dionysian Ride of the Valkeries to Valhalla. There are worse ways to go.
I am very keen to see if Liverpool can pull a Bristol or Glasgow and clean its downtown the hell up. It certainly seems that the civic “attitude” is there in abundance though I am not sure the Liverputians or whatever the hell they are called have the civic mindedness to stop pissing on the streets when they are drunk (24/7) and bashing in windows and vandalizing shit. Then again, maybe that was just my impression of the city. It is supposed to have the second most Georgian buildings next to Bath believe it or not?
Of course, I used to be in the industry. Can’t think of many better ways to go than when sipping Chardonnay and eating crayfish at Buitenverwachting on a Sunday afternnon.
BTW, Di’s brother lives in Constantia.
Alley Cat:
Which wines? Also I think that Di’s brother’s ex wife lives in Constantia: Victoria.
Anyway, the truly sad thing about Liverpool is that even the women piss in the streets after too many pints. Now don’t get me wrong but there is nothing sadder than seeing the Two Fat Slags out on the town only to end up ON the town.
[quote=“fred smith”]Alley Cat:
Which wines? Also I think that Di’s brother’s ex wife lives in Constantia: Victoria.
Anyway, the truly sad thing about Liverpool is that even the women piss in the streets after too many pints. Now don’t get me wrong but there is nothing sadder than seeing the Two Fat Slags out on the town only to end up ON the town.[/quote]
I’m no connoisseur fred; I drink them all.
Is it just me or are cheap French wines the worst tasting on the planet?
For the same money, one can buy perfectly respectable New World plonk.
Why do Vin de Pays and others continue to be found everywhere, when they are obviously horrible?
On the other hand though, I was once given a Bordeaux, worth about US$150 at the time, and it was fantastic. Sadly the much-hyped restaurant we took it too, did not do the wine justice.
I guess wine must be a key part of civilized cities so let’s run off thread.
For me, nothing is worse than Beaujolais Nouveau. Never liked the taste. Hate the hangover. Worst in my life.
Not a huge fan of Burgundy. Naturally Bordeaux is always nice if the wine is not plonk. Had a great white wine in Nice once. Gaddi’s at the Peninsula Hotel in Hong Kong serves it though I think the number of bottles is quite limited per year. Similar effect can be had much cheaper with Etchardt Torrontes (Argentina).
For the money though give me Chilean (check out Salsa Bistro’s selection), Vina Esmeralda (white Spanish) various Spanish Riojas (Caceres?) also like Aus-NZ wines while not overly fond of California wines (too something strawberry maybe?) but I like the Zinfandels (not white!) and then of course have always found the price to quality for Argentine wines a phenomenal deal. Have to say South African wines tasted better in the 1980s to 1996 or so. Lately a bit disappointing.
Someone once brought a great Australian wine called Blue Pyrrennes. Also like Wolf Blatz that was very nice and I have to say at the cheap end there are some good Cabernet/Shiraz blends for only NT$368 at Wellcome.
Was just back in Argentina in November and with the currency depreciating, the costs were very affordable. The best wine Ruttini was only US$16 per bottle. Used to be US$60 to US$70. Bit heavy but very nice if you like Cabernet Sauvignon. Now when I mean heavy I do not mean jammy like Australian wines, I mean full intense Cabernet Cabernet Franc fullness. Wow.
It almost took my mind off those two fat chicks pissing on the sidewalk in Liverpool. haha
What is with you and the two Liverpudlian slappers?
Let it go. Just let it go!
A “common sewer” then, as a dear friend of mine often says.