Dear ac_,
Would you prefer PRC to be under the current system of government, or change to a democratic, free election system?
X3M,
I prefer a monarchy akin to Suadi Arabia, Japan, Spain, and UK. Where the accident of ones birth decides it all. Not to mention a rigid class system so the their is no need for ambition.
This is the problem to your question, there is no guarantee that any of those system work as the best to govern any populace. So it becomes a philosophical debate in the end.
Why not just look at some benchmarks in the last 20 years and you’ll see PRC hasn’t done that bad for themselves in that time frame using their “unappealing,” “undemocratic,” “souless” communist system.
Just look to India for a comparision. Their democratic system has them nearly nuking Pakistan over an issue the British caused when they left the sub-continent. But yet their pace of their economic development is still behind PRC. Not to mention corruption is rampant in their system.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]X3M,
I prefer a monarchy akin to Suadi Arabia, Japan, Spain, and UK. Where the accident of ones birth decides it all. Not to mention a rigid class system so the their is no need for ambition.
This is the problem to your question, there is no guarantee that any of those system work as the best to govern any populace. So it becomes a philosophical debate in the end.
Why not just look at some benchmarks in the last 20 years and you’ll see PRC hasn’t done that bad for themselves in that time frame using their “unappealing,” “undemocratic,” “souless” communist system.
Just look to India for a comparision. Their democratic system has them nearly nuking Pakistan over an issue the British caused when they left the sub-continent. But yet their pace of their economic development is still behind PRC. Not to mention corruption is rampant in their system.[/quote]
If PRC can get even close in matters of democracy and human rights with 3 of these countries, it would be the biggest break-trough in human history. It is time for PRC to let the concubines leave on their free will, and then focus on what’s their’s (inside the great walls)…
In at least 3 of the countries you mention, the monark have no power, and is just a figurehead.
The PRC system is still a cruel dictatorship who kills and torture people on random charges (if there is any charges before they are killed/torured).
You can sit in your comfy chair in US, and suggest that Taiwan should be part of the disgusting PRC, who are one of the worst offenders against the UN charter.
Shame on you AC_!
What makes you believe democracy and human rights go hand in hand.
There have been plenty of human rights violations in the USA under democracy. Black Slavery, Native Americans Treatment, Chinese Exclusion Act, Japanese Interment…the list is endless with the War in the Middle East.
How about Captain James Yee and Wen Ho Lee, modern cases of a democracy and free press using racial prejudice to hang innocent people in the press with no evidence of wrong doing?
Just be glad you’re not an American of Middle East descent right now.
Ever hear of “White Austraila,” that was a government policy forward by a democracy. In this instance, Austraila would prefer Nazi immigrants over colored commonwealth immigrants. Just by skin color they could determine the “goodness” in people. Democracy and human rights has got to be one of the biggest propaganda tool in the world.
Look closely at the laws in the UK for royality and power. They can fast track laws, appoint people in parliment.
As for Japan, they are in constant flux on what power occurs behind the chrysanthemum curtain. The emporer has had the same legal powers before and after WWII. One needs to look Meiji laws.
The royal family is still highly influential in Japan. If not why would they care about a male heir.
Time for you to go to the PRC and make some “human” contant in the PRC like Clinton suggested. Because you’re speaking nonsense.
OK, I should have known better than spending my time “talking” to someone who does not believe in human rights or democracy, and obviously think the communist dictatorship in China is better than the systems in US, UK, Japan etc.
But please, stop trying to drag Taiwan into that system - let the people of Taiwan decide by themself in a free, democratic way, without external threats.
Nice attempt at a red herring AC. No-one said they went hand in hand. The previous poster only said that should the PRC makes gains in the two, it would be a major breakthrough. Now stop trying to bend the topic so it suits you and deal with what people say rather than what you wish they’d said.
[quote=“X3M”]OK, I should have known better than spending my time “talking” to someone who does not believe in human rights or democracy, and obviously think the communist dictatorship in China is better than the systems in US, UK, Japan etc.
But please, stop trying to drag Taiwan into that system - let the people of Taiwan decide by themself in a free, democratic way, without external threats.[/quote]
I think you do not see all the threats ROC faces from both the USA and PRC.
Do you consider USA passive position on ROC to be threat to Taiwan? Do you consider statements questioning ROC commitment to our own security because we question the value of the US arms package a threat?
Let’s address your human rights issue directly then. ROC doesn’t let any PRC citizen into ROC freely, nor are PRC citizens allowed to immigrate under the same standards as other foriegners. Where as the PRC has a Taibaozhen for ROC citizens which is a 2 year free pass into the PRC.
Wouldn’t you agree in this aspect PRC has greater human rights than ROC.
It is not that I don’t believe in human rights. It is that I question your statements. You place value judgements on forms of government and I am asking for evidence to support your claim. I have provided evidence of the human rights atrocities democracies can commit, which you are unable to refute or even explain .
Nice attempt at a red herring AC. No-one said they went hand in hand. The previous poster only said that should the PRC makes gains in the two, it would be a major breakthrough. Now stop trying to bend the topic so it suits you and deal with what people say rather than what you wish they’d said.[/quote]
The previous poster is unaware of the many changes going on in PRC society right now. Will PRC surpass Taiwan culturally and politically? If history is any indicator, Taiwan doesn’t have much of a chance.
What’s that adage. Those that don’t remember the Doom history maps, must live to repeat that level…before reaching the bonus cow stage…or something like that.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
The previous poster is unaware of the many changes going on in PRC society right now. [/quote]
Nobody is unaware of the many changes going on in PRC “society.” However, that does not make the political system less sclerotic. If I have heard one critique over and over, one that I agree with, it is that while Chinese society is changing, the political system, in essence, is not. Oh yes, we hear all about how economic changes are necessary first. I can’t say that that viewpoint is wrong. But a bit of surrender of power…a gradual political transformation by the CPP, would be welcome. Oh yes, the Chinese people are now ready for it. And neither are the people of HK.
Local elections? Have you ever heard of someone on the local level in China getting real power to make decisions? Of course not. Power is made by those above. It always has been. You are a fan of the long Chinese traditions. You should know that that point has not yet changed.
Great! Wang Xiansheng can now live on 1,200 RMB a month! But the day he has the right to vote Hu Jintao out of office, or even think about it if he wants to, then you can stert to talk about changes. Because originally the point was about the lack of democracy and human rights in China (without making an attempt to connect them)…which has not changed, not economic or social change…a fact that you conveniently gloss over…as is your usual tendency.
Typo: The above should read: “Oh yes, the Chinese people are NOT ready for it, and neither are the people of HK.”
tomtom taiwan,
Looking at the mess of ROC democracy, what makes anyone in Asia want the system.
I haven’t heard of this in any country in general. Legend of Ah Q. Those that are in power, are there because of factors outside the political system. Family background, historical wealth, ambition, individual ability etc. are usually more important in determining individual political success in almost any system.
It’s a poor man’s myth to believe they are in control.
Look at CSB as the perfect example. His constant flip flopping on the TI is not because he is reading Taiwan polls day to day. It is because he wishes to consolidate his own political power within the ROC political system.
Does the lady in the alley selling me my lunch box really have any significant power in our democratic system? I don’t think so. Her vote can be bought and sold for a free set of kitchen utensils.
The real irony is of course, the lady that sells me my lunchbox, her issue is how to make ends meet and ensure her children have a future. Because she could give a toss about TI.
At least if this lady was in the PRC, she would be expecting a 9% growth in her business every year because that is the mandate of their leadership which justify their rule.
“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others” --Winston Churchill
Looking at the mess in ROC democracy, it is still more appealing than the PRC non-democracy.
In a democratic system, the ones in power has to constantly readjust his actions according to the wishes of his constituents if he is to stay in power. This is the difference between a democracy and an authoritarian state. By this principle the people are in relatively more control in a democracy than otherwise.
Simply because no system is perfect, it is no excuse to use a more unfair system where the few has absolute control over the many.
It is true that CSB is backtracking from his TI agenda because he wishes to consolidate his party’s political influence, but he does this so that he can actually get some things done that would benefit the people in Taiwan, which is in the best interest of most Taiwanese(it’s up to you to choose whether you want to be in this category). This also complies with the spirit of democracy mentioned above.
As for your lady. I would hope that on average Taiwanese won’t have to sell out their ideals for a free set of kitchen utensils. Since on average Taiwanese are better off than Chinese, this would also support distancing ourselves from PRC goverance.
On a last note, the last american election has many people voting for moral values over economic self-interest.
[quote]In a democratic system, the ones in power has to constantly readjust his actions according to the wishes of his constituents if he is to stay in power. This is the difference between a democracy and an authoritarian state. By this principle the people are in relatively more control in a democracy than otherwise.
Simply because no system is perfect, it is no excuse to use a more unfair system where the few has absolute control over the many. [/quote]
The key difference is that the “republic” systems we view favorably, forces political leaders to compromise with their opponents to forward any agenda.
Is it the best system? It depends on the situation.
However, the myth I was alluding to is that the common man has no power over the elected official during his tenure. Hence, the compromises the elected official wishes to make are out of the constituent
[quote=“ac_dropout”]
Look closely at the laws in the UK for royality and power. They can fast track laws, appoint people in parliment. [/quote]
Just as a gentle warning to others, Ac has absolutely no idea about the political sysetm in the UK or just about any other country. If you study his post in any detail you will soon begin to notice the blinding lack of any evidence to support his hot air based fairytales and myths.
a few quotes to illustrate [quote=“ac_dropout”]
Even though UK propaganda always says “Oh it is only for ceremony, they have no ‘real’ power.” The fact of the matter is that they do have real power and do tax real money from their “enlightened” serfs.
Is that the reason why 40% of all British urban women want to date minority men.
Brits always had a pecular sense of English semantics and spelling.
under the PRC those Chinese HK’er finally have an unrestricted ability to control their live
most expert believe PRC can and will have the ability to challenge USA sphere of influence within a realitively short amount of time. [/quote]
and my favourite [quote=“ac_dropout”]
Saddam
Sounds just like China. Did the Chinese decide to clone the Indians at corruption or was it that supression of free media prevented the reports of corruption?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]tomtom taiwan,
Looking at the mess of ROC democracy, what makes anyone in Asia want the system.
I haven’t heard of this in any country in general.
[quote]
Local elections? Have you ever heard of someone on the local level in China getting real power to make decisions? [/quote]
I haven’t heard of this in any country in general. Legend of Ah Q. Those that are in power, are there because of factors outside the political system. Family background, historical wealth, ambition, individual ability etc. are usually more important in determining individual political success in almost any system.
It’s a poor man’s myth to believe they are in control.
Look at CSB as the perfect example. His constant flip flopping on the TI is not because he is reading Taiwan polls day to day. It is because he wishes to consolidate his own political power within the ROC political system.
Does the lady in the alley selling me my lunch box really have any significant power in our democratic system? I don’t think so. Her vote can be bought and sold for a free set of kitchen utensils.
The real irony is of course, the lady that sells me my lunchbox, her issue is how to make ends meet and ensure her children have a future. Because she could give a toss about TI.
At least if this lady was in the PRC, she would be expecting a 9% growth in her business every year because that is the mandate of their leadership which justify their rule.[/quote]
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There are many who praise the ploitical accomplishments of Taiwan in the last 20 years. And yes, I have spoken to many who think Taiwan is doing well. ---- So that point is shot down.
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There are local elections in almost every community in the USA. In small towns countrywide, people can elect officials and make municipal laws…a handful of people. Laws are passed on the local and state level that are fully binding as long as they dont conflict with a very simple federal constitution.
Switzerland: Many very important laws are decided on one man, one vote referendums.
So yes, I have heard of countries where people vote in true local elections. I have lived in the two above and seen it work fine.
Sorry, hon, your point number two is shot down too.
As for your point on CSB, you miss the idea of democracy entirely. Politicians are supposed to do WHAT THEIR CONSTITUENTS PREFER. While I don’t like politicians who waffle too much (John Kerry), it is also a flaw for a politician to not bend.
Point three shot down. (You’re not doing well tonight AC)
And one more thing. If you truly analyze the growth of wealth in China, it is not ladies with lunchboxes who are earning the big returns.
OOOh…and your bad example goes up in flames too.
The same propaganda praise goes to the Philippines and all the Bananna Republics in South America when it suits people needs. For real answers tell me how many countries go to the GIO on Taiwan emulate our government system…not many I assure you.
You’re right local laws that bans oral sex and anal sex are very significant to fabric of USA culture. Not to mention Alternate side parking and the amount to fine for dog poop. Jim Crow laws were shining examples of local racist constituents and law makers opposing the federal government.
Just laws are passed by wise and just people (usually college educated with worldly views), not by the ignorant masses (your typical John Q Public).
The current Evolution vs. Creationism debate in some local States in the USA, it is becoming obvious education standards are deteriorating.
This of course points to another corner stone of what is necessary for a democracy to function properly. High standard education.
I assure you no TI supporter would by dumb enough to ask the PRC to have a democracy style referrendum on the Strait Issue or their solution. Even the world would not deny 1.3 billion people their will. Hence, be thankful a reformer made it to office in the PRC and are holding back the Hawks in that country.
Obviously you don’t understand the power of office.
How did the Representative of FL and CO get caught up in Strait Issue? They have almost no Chinese people in those states compare to NY, HI, and CA. Yet they are taking the lead to redefining the Strait Issue. You really serious that the constituents in FL and CO are really that concerned about the Strait Issue in comparision to States with huge Asian populations.
Pay more attention in your polisci class next time.
AC, again you show your ingnorance by side-stepping the topic at hand.
A company is run by its owners, who decide the management structure and choose the top management to operate the company for optimal profit. The same is probably true for PRC/CCP.
However, this system ignore the citizens’ rights and well being.
Thank you for making it clear (again) that you believe in “ruling class people” and “ruled/oppressed class people”.
X3M,
If they ignored all their citizens, how did they become 1.3 billion of them.
Organzations are managed/governed by processess that evolved from the need of the organization. Top-down pressures and Bottom-Up pressures do exist and forces these processes to evolve for any organization to be successful. This is true in both the private and public sector.
Ever notice how with power comes ‘moral authority?’ WhyTF do Americans publish on the human rights of the world when Americans are committing violations half a world away in the name of vital national interest? Is the American corruption of human rights the preferred version? Europeans would disagree. Is the European version preferrable? Americans would disagree. But the world basically has to kiss ass and make nice and conform to whomever has the biggest stick. WhyTF do people all of sudden become enamored with American culture and political systems? Because it is the best culture and the fairest political system? No. People only give a shit because Americans are filthy rich and have a big military, and they have a big military because they are filthy rich. Well, guess what? Every Chinese is working on getting filthy rich right now. And most are genuinely content with the implicit social contract. You don’t go dick around with something that most people are content with. Only TIers do that.