Dentist question - a cultural difference?

Im in taipei anyone have a recommendation for a cheap dentist ? I need a root canal and im paying with cash
Thanks

Hey, just get a round trip to India. Everything is cheap as hell there.

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Not even possible these days.

Hey RickRoll, can you share the Dentist name and location?

I’ve been through many. Some better than others, but need to find a good one for some major work like maybe implants

Actually, to anyone here that has a recommendation for a good reliable dentist for major work like implants much appreciated.

It’s been a while, and I don’t remember his name.
But the place is in Sanxia:
高品牙醫診所
No. 183號, Dade Road, Sanxia District, New Taipei City, 237
02 8672 6258

There’s a ton of cultural differnces.

I have both TW and US license. I was born in TW and went to US since middle school. I know both ways thoroughly. I’m more US than TW if you’re curious. In US for 20+ yrs. In TW 10+ yrs. Personally, I found TW healthcare system extremely bad. The saddest part is that the people don’t know a single s* about it. The following facts are based on my experience in both countries. I do not look down nor disrespect anyone in any ways.

TW dental board exam is based on US textbooks. The entire board exam is a 100% copy of US textbooks, except for the part about its own legally ripped off social insurance (public health). The board exam also expects general dentists to know knowledge that’s supposed to be only for the specialists. It’s 1 way to tell foreigners that they’re competent in every field even though they just memorize answers for good grades. If I remember correctly, there are 4 sections. Each section has 80 questions. It doesn’t matter if you fail 1 section as long as you pass with the total score of 60%. This means you would have a ton of dentists on mixed knowledge level of certain fields. I passed it at 70%, that’s how I know it. Yes, you only need 60% to pass an exam in TW, but I want to see how capable I am even though I know my Chinese is at elementary level. Yes, I hated it. It’s the dumbest board exam to test a general dentist about all specialty knowledge. Why? because it’s pretty much memorizing and getting good grades on a test and then forget about the entire useless part because you don’t do it enough. Right after you pass the board exam, you are forced to work under specific clinics/community centers/hospitals for 2 years before you can use your own name to open up your own private practice. OR you can choose to work under other dentists’ name and get full pay. This is how sometimes you can see really bad dentists due to the financial incentives they were forced to accept, basically their salary can get cut off 50% of their productions. You wouldn’t work for half of the minimum wage the 1st 2 years in US, would you? And no, they won’t tell you if they’re under that situations. So good luck on that.

I was in US as a dentist to learn skills my dental school didn’t teach, then went back to TW as a dentist for family. Now, I’m back in US because TW dentistry is just bad. And no, Taipei dentists aren’t better than the rest of the dentists in Taiwan. Most Taiwanese would think that way, especially Taiwanese who are residents in Taipei only because Taipei is the “capital” of TW. Do not be deceived by their fancy offices, fancy “dresses” or fancy “choice of words” vs the rest of TW. TW dentists spent more time training at their “communication skills” than actual clinical skills. Google reviews nowadays don’t mean much, take them with a grain of salt. You can get away with bad reviews when you pay bad reviewers money and ask them to remove their reviews. Yes, business can be dirty sometimes, but it’s how the real world works. The only way to know if a dentist is good or not is advices by your trustworthy friends or something like reddit (ptt/dcard are what most Taiwanese would go for. I’m sure there are other websites like this). A word of advise, I would never trust a TW dentist if I can choose a US-trained dentist in TW. Not because TW dentistry is bad, it’s because the culture is forcing TW dentists to behave a certain way that’s not beneficial for the patients. TW dentistry is based on what works first and then why it works. US dentistry is the other way around because US practices true democracy more than TW will ever do. You still have to yield cars in TW, right? I guess human rights don’t mean s* in Asian world.

About root canal treatments. Most GPs (general practictioners/general dentists) don’t know right after root canal treatment, pts may still feel pain due to post-op inflammation/residual infection. A root canal treatment is never 100% clear off of infection because it’s a treatment that only cleans in 1 direction from your mouth into bone direction. The remaining infection is small enough for your body to handle. You can tell something’s wrong already if a general dentist doesn’t give you any useful healthcare reasons. Anyone can say “Oh yea, just wait it out, you’ll feel better later.” Even your ex can say that to you. The reaction to residual infection or post-op inflammation varies in individuals. Same thing applies to your allergic reaction might not be the same as others. It could range from extremely painful w/ or w/o swelling to no pain at all the next day. African Americans tend to have stronger anti-inflammatory reaction than other races based on my own experience. Sometimes, pts will need short-acting steroids for a few days to help ease off the inflammation and thus the pain. Trust me, most TW dentists don’t know any other patients beside TW patients because that’s basically who they will ever see in their career. Most TW dentists won’t do drugs that are considered “strong” because they don’t want to be blamed afterwards for doing certain behavior. This is typical of most Asians who would rather not get involved than actually correct a certain issue. Yes, ibuprofen is considered a strong analgesics in TW because it’s not as popular as acetaminophen, which is in panadol. Again, TW healthcare system is based on US healthcare system. They just tweak it a little bit and claim it’s their system. Don’t get me wrong, it’s ok to copy other healthcare system if it works so well, saves money and time. Don’t just take credit for it and claim it’s all yours. US research is based on Caucasians. Obviously, most of the research outcomes won’t apply as well in TW because most people in TW are Asians. No anesthetics for root canal treatment after nerve removal will serve more convenience for the dentist than the patient. If patients have pain during root canal treatment after 100% nerve removal, then it would mean they clean “beyond” the tooth and into the bone, which has nerves. All they have to do is don’t go beyond the length and finish the root canal at the “correct” length. This gives the dentist 100% guarantee that a root canal treatment is successful. Obviously, this may cause you discomfort or pain because once your nerve is firing pain signal, it’s a up to your immune system when to not feel the pain. Also, it would mean they could save some costs on anesthetics for the next patient.
As far as having 4 visits in root canal treatment, it’s just a way for them to see more patients per day and also a way to see the same patient per visit. This is how they ask for money from the social insurance, which is based on codes per visit. Thus, social insurance in TW encourages quantity over quality of work. You will never receive the best dental quality in TW vs US because dentists in TW want to make more money per visit. A more pleasing reason you will hear most of the time is that “oh yea, because we want to make sure you don’t feel pain after each visit, so that I know the infection is cleared off completely, so that I can do the next step with confidence and with no complications, blah blah blah.” A competent GP or endodontist would do a visit in 1 or 2 visits because he/she knows the reason behind a root canal treatment.

Conclusion:

  1. Patients in TW are basically lab rats for TW dentists. Their so-called training is worse than US dental school. You even have to train 1 year to literally stand behind older dentists and observe them what they do. This is a way for them to divide dentist competitions within the same year. What they should do is limit the amount of dentists graduating per year to preserve dental quality, instead they postpone competitions through more time in training. But again, Asian education is based on good grades, not on good competence. Dentistry requires knowledge and practice, not just watching.
  2. I would go for a US-trained dentist any time vs a TW dentist. Look out for TW dentists from Poland or Spain. Maybe your good TW friends will tell you about such notion. They even have a list of all these people, it’s crazy how Taiwanese citizens will do when they’re really pissed off. These are the dentists who aren’t competent enough to apply for TW dental schools and are forced to study abroad to Poland or Spain because TW at the moment admits dentists in Poland and in Spain as competent dentists in TW. “Politics.” A stereotypical notion for TW in general. It illustrates how incompetent these people are that they have to go study abroad to become dentists in TW. Yes, you can see how arrogant TW are when they’re comparing themselves with other people. And no, they see US dentists are more competent at this point in time. I’m sure the next generation would look down at every country because they’re so brain-washed by its own education. They tend to “forget” that their board exam is based on US textbooks. Supposedly an easier program for foreigners as long as you pay the money. Easier program means they get worse dental education than the locals. Most of them are considered as 1st or 2nd year dental students in US, imo. Just means they’re not even ready to see patients yet.
  3. Most TW dentists resume is 50% fake or 80% over-exaggerated. Most of their so-called US implant training are from NYU because the school offers short-term programs with certificates. As in, you spent 1 day in a program, pay your fees and get the certificates. Basically you buy the certificates as a proof that you’re capable of placing implants. As far as how good they are? it depends on their talents and experience. I was graduated in NYU, which was well-known for its top clinical dentistry. It means dental students are forced to practice real-life dentistry on patients in 3rd and 4th year to get ahead of the clinical experience than any other US dental schools, not even Ivy League can compete NYU general dentists (not specialists). Enough boasting, you can always check on dental school ranking websites (it varies within range).
  4. TW dentistry is acceptable for a federally-funded social insurance. Acceptable as in cheap cost with fairly reasonable dental services. But again, the services are based on the dentists. You can get lucky with a dentist who can spend 30 min on regular cleaning if the person has a good heart.It’s terrible for a private practice office. Hospitals don’t offer better services. It depends on the practitioners. It’s more politically involved in TW healthcare than US healthcare.
  5. Don’t expect newly licensed dentists to do great work beacuse the offices will put pressure on them and basically refer “good cases” to older dentists. 50% discount newly licensed dentists won’t bring the office money. The older dentists will. Don’t be afraid to confront the dentists. They’re afraid of being sued. It’s time to teach TW dentists to shut up and listen.
  6. You can tell you will spend big bucks based on office designs. If it’s “renovated,” expect paying fees at your 1st visit. It’s their business way of telling poor patients to f* off. Most patients get that because they’re Taiwanese.
  7. Most private offices suck at what they do. Most dentists are good at techniques, the “how” part because that’s where they spent big bucks in US or other countries and learn techniques from. Once in a while, you will see dentists claming it’s their own techniques. Very sad to see. Most dentists don’t know much about the “why” part. This is “why” you don’t know why your dentist not doing anesthetics for you even though you’re feeling pain.

If you want to know more about the unknowns, you are more than welcome to ask me.

Notes:

  1. You don’t need 4+ years to do bracecs/invisalign. If you’re going through 4+ years already, gratz, you got a terrible dentist who don’t know s* about ortho, but only techniques. Worse scenario is ~3.5 years for a big chin patient. More than that, we’re talking about OGS already (surgery in operatory room with oral surgeons who basically break your bones and correct them at an esthetically pleasing level. Cost you about ~200k NT give or take, depending on their “fame” even though techniques are all the same.)
  2. You only need 1-2 visits for a root canal treatment. Yes, even with highly calcified tooth (tooth on x-rays you can hardly see the nerve). Highly trained GP or endodontists can complete a root canal treatment in 1-1.5 hrs. You will see a ton of incompetent TW dentists doing microscopes and ultrasonic tips, mainly for more fees, instead of more preservation of tooth structure. How do you know? just ask for an x-ray after root canal treatment is done and compare to your original tooth. You will see a ton of tooth structure is gone. 2mm is considered a lot for root canal treatment. A highly trained GP/endodontists will limit the amount of destroying tooth structure because that’s the fundamental of endodontics.
  3. I was “passively” fired by one office I was working at in TW because I literally told patients not to do certain treatments that they didn’t need.
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I will add that my dentist here is almost identical to my US dentist except the floride treatment and nitrous, which aren’t done here. She does constantly rip on other TW dentists though.

If your near Hsinchu this is my dentist. Excellent!

Can you explain this?
Are you saying 1st and 2nd year dentists are forced to give up half their pay?

It’s very simple in the business models in TW dentistry.
Either you’re under social insurance or fee for service/private.

Anything that’s under social insurance, expect cheap and lengthy process.
Anything that’s under fee for service, expect high cost and their big smiles on their faces with shallow politeness.
As far as quality? this depends on that dentist. So good luck with that.
I would go for US-trained vs TW-trained. This is not a 100% guarantee that a US-trained dentist in TW won’t make mistakes. However, this will increase your odds at getting a better dentist who actually cares.

I used to work in Taichung, but this business model applies to everywhere, not just TW. They call it “hybrid DSO.” DSO = corporate dentistry. Hybrid just means a tweak in original DSO model. The business model I was in was a large umbrella DSO/corporate company that partners/purchases many individual private practices or opens its own offices. Each office has its own unique office culture (unique as in what kind of patients they see based on geography; no demographics because it’s pretty much Asians and owner’s preference on clinical procedures). At the same time, each office is run/managed by its big boss DSO. Therefore, the owner in each office doesn’t mean much because the owners eventually need to listen to their big boss DSO for major changes. By law, every dentist/doctor can only open 1 private office with their own names. This is why they look for partners to open additional private offices with other people’s names. By law, the 1st 2 years newly licensed dentist need to practice under offices that have “special training program,” if they want to open up their own practice after 2 years of working. Think of it as residency but with no one gives a damn about you to train you and help you improve your skills. You’re literally on your own with minimal pay and make mistakes on your own. It’s not a true residency program in US because you have no actual mentors to help you improve your skills. The only thing you don’t have to hold accountable is the mistakes you make on your patients because the DSO will take care of that for you. Most cases, they just pay a certain fee to the patients and ask them not to sue them. It’s alot easier when money can solve problems vs going to court. The hybrid DSO just takes advantage of the legal system and comes up with their own pay scale system. They pretty much can reduce the salary by up to 60%. Main reason is because there are too many low-quality dentists in TW and there is no federal program that sort this kind of thing, ranking high-quality to low-quality. I was at the 2nd highest pay scale because of my experience (5 years) and it still cut me at 50% off. Yes, I can do everything, except for sinus lifting and soft tissue grafting. It’s considered uncommon for a 5-year GP to do this in US. Most GP in US can’t even do endodontics, not because they don’t want to do it, but because the working environment encourages them to do more cleaning and still make more money than doing endodontics. I strongly recommend patients not to rank the quality of their dentists by the amount of procedures/kinds of procedures they can do. You can teach a lab technician to make dentures and place implants, but they will never know how to solve problems if there is 1.

Yes, the 1st 2 year newly licensed dentists in TW are forced to give up a large proportion of their productions. The proportion depends on the pay scale designed by hybrid DSO/private offices/any business models that take advantage of the legal system.

Tip:

  1. Invisalign copyright is already over. Its large database is being shared globally, maybe with a certain fee. You now will see a ton of Invisalign rip-offs, especially in Asian dental markets. The only important resource in Invisalign is its large database, which is used as an algorithm to run by the Invisalign softwares. Most GPs don’t know a single s* about orthodontics/braces/Invisalign. They just know how to mechanically operate a scanner and send the data to Invisalign for a small fee, in return, your large fee and multiple clear trays that are printed by a 3D printer. If a dentist is more capable, he/she can operate a scanner and a 3D printer with a rip-off software in office and make the entire profits by themselves. Again, look for orthodontists if you want real people trained for straightening your teeth. This applies to US GPs as well. The so-called “diamond ranking or blah blah ranking” flashing on their windows is nothing but a way to describe how many Invisalign cases these dentists have been doing per year. It does not describe how skillful they are at moving teeth with Invisalign. The entire Invisalign is based on software algorithm, not by GP clinical skills. Orthodontists use Invisalign as tools to move teeth. GPs use Invisalign as a way to make profits.
  2. If you live in Taipei, you will know this dentist. He’s one of the popular CEREC users in TW, not in US. Not many dentists in TW are using CEREC. If they were using them, they are extremely terrible at it because CEREC requires more polished clinical skills than traditional dentistry. And TW dentistry doesn’t encourage dentists to do more for the same pay. I believe he used to be in Keep Cerecing, a facebook forum with a large pool of CEREC dentists all over the world. He was booted due to a competition on the best looking CEREC crown designed by “dentists.” He won the competition by asking his lab to do it for him. Considered cheating and got booted. This is why you don’t see TW-born TW CEREC users in the CEREC world, which is a large expo/conference for more popular CEREC dentists to share their cup of teas (besides only a few are just being humble or don’t wanna get involved). Because the TW-born TW CEREC users just copy whatever US CEREC dentists are doing for the most part. The guy “designed EasyPrep,” which is basically a rip-off version of Iso-dry/Iso-lite. I don’t know him in person, but I know he’s been copycating stuff (designs, techniques, business models, blah blah blah) off of US for the most part and claiming they’re all his. I guess US law doesn’t apply in TW.
  3. The office I got fired was applying CEREC system as well. CEREC has different systems. They used the scanner system, not the all-in-one system, where they scan the tooth and send it to the lab. The funny part is they have their own lab. So they send the scanned data to their own lab for additional fees to make the crown. This is how they make money. The worst part is the lab technicians don’t know a single s* what they were doing. I had to tell them what to do step by step to design my crown for me, yet they still get paid for knowing nothing. The head lab technician was sent abroad (not sure if its’ US, in most cases, it’s in US) to get training done, but I already know he didn’t know English at all. How could you expect someone to be expert in something of English language if that person doesn’t even know English? The dentists in the office weren’t trained by CEREC system. They just knew to use the cheapest way and the traditional ways to practice CEREC system, which is not designed for traditional dentistry. I know because I read some cases based on x-rays they took. I know beacuse I saw their failed cases of crowns/bridges. Often times, you will see porcelain crowns fracture/fall off/crack and often times you will see TW dentists pointing fingers at the patients for responsibility. As if their dental work is perfect and it’s always the patients’ problems. Again, they’re using TW patients as lab rats as they practice new system they don’t fully understand. What they should do is actually learn from the manufacturers to understand the new system they’ve been applying. But they won’t do that for the most part because it costs too much money and time.
  4. Speaking of ibuprofen vs panadol. Both drugs work differently on pain signals. Eventually i’ts trial and error to see if a patient is good for which. Just think of it as ibuprofen blocks pain signals from your periphery to your brain while panadol blocks pain singals from your brain to your periphery. You take different freeways to reach the same destination. Sometimes 1 drug works better than the others because of your pain signaling pathway.
  5. Speaking of Ivy league general dentistry. My school visited Ivy league schools (Mostly on East Coast) and few of my friends (2nd year) told me they had to teach their 3rd and 4th year students (4th year is the last year of dental school before graduation) how to do a proper crown prep or a proper filling. Don’t be deceived by the “prestigious” Ivy-league halo. Ivy league dental schools are better for their specialties, not for their general dentistry because they spend most of their research funds on specialties, not on general dentistry.
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Thanks… Just saw the reply. I appreciate it.