I had to go to taichung for a short time to visit my grandparants, and both ways on the train I had to listen to little kid screaming on the top of their lung for some stupid reason and their parents dont seem to care or something. I remember back in my day if I screamed like that my mom or dad or both would either pinch me real hard, or whoop my ass as soon as we got home. I mean isn’t the chinese culture known for their great discipline and stuff like that so why is it that I see more and more parents tolerating misbehavior of thier kid?
I saw a couple bring a kid to a church run coffee bar once and he would not only scream (enough to hurt my ear) but would break stuff like glasses and stuff like that. I dont even know why the coffee bar tolerated them. Someone needs to spank these kids or else they are gonna grow up as criminals or worse!
What’s worse conscription doesn’t teach them a damm thing because boot camp in Taiwan is a joke (I mean it!) the stupid senior/junior relationship does nothing to teach anyone except to benefit the senior, and these kid comes out acting all gangster and stuff too. I seriously think they need to require a high school education before letting them leave the army or something…
Children are traditionally to be indulged in Chinese culture, not prevented from running amuck. Of course with the move from a mostly agricultural economy to an urban one, the little tykes become more and more annoying when they are not controlled at least to some degree, particularly in enclosed, public spaces like trains, busses, and coffee shops.
Like you, I was not allowed to run screaming around stores, or pull things off shelves, or whatever, in public. I’m sure some will disagree, but IMHO I grew up fairly normally despite what was undoubtedly terribly restrictive parenting.
Taiwanese kids alone or in groups (herds? ) can often be influenced by the “teacher look” (if they’re not too old to be “way too cool” already) but it’s tough with the parents are right there and clearly don’t give a damn what Junior is up to or how many decibels he’s doing it at.
They definitely can be inflenced by the “teacher look” - yesterday I encountered two kids driving a remote controlled car all over on the sidewalk. That was fine, but one of them was screaming his head off. I stopped, looked around, and glared at the offender. His friend even pointed at him and shook his head and finger at him too. Probably got a kick out of the weirdo foreign lady.
I disagree that kids are “traditionally” indulged, although my experience is limited to the HK and overseas diaspora, ie I would generally agree that this may be a Taiwan thing.
How long have you been here? … the 10+ years I have, I’ve almost never seen a child behave … and parents being indifferent carrying on what they were doing without even looking up …
Yeah, it’s something I’ve also noticed, to my dismay.
I was once at a “quiet” restuarant on Minzu road (Tainan) where parents of a two or three year old were having lunch with their kid and grandparents. At one point the kid got boisterous and when the mother tried to calm him down he just didn’t listen. Then came the part that shocked me. The mom smacked him on the bottom (not hard at all, just enough to let him know it’s not done not to listen), and the grandmother responded with the speed of a rattlesnake by slapping her (very hard) right through the face!
She can’t spank her own kid without her own mother b**ch slapping her?
But the other thing is this. Respect of other people, especially in closed spaces like trains or “quiet” places like restuarants. If you’re at a restuarant having a nice dinner with your SO, what’s the done thing, culturally, when a kid at the table next to yours is screaming his head off with no restraint? Would it help to ask the parents to keep him/her quiet? Do you just grin and bear it? Or bugger off somewhere else?
But the other thing is this. Respect of other people, especially in closed spaces like trains or “quiet” places like restuarants. If you’re at a restuarant having a nice dinner with your SO, what’s the done thing, culturally, when a kid at the table next to yours is screaming his head off with no restraint? Would it help to ask the parents to keep him/her quiet? Do you just grin and bear it? Or bugger off somewhere else?[/quote]
This not only goes for children but for adults too … imagine a quite dinner party and suddenly in the room nextdoor they start singing karaoke … and not in the best of voices … the point is, people in restaurants don’t give a shit if you’re disturbed by them or their children … they are inconsiderate idiots
i was once riding the taiwanese greyhound (kwoh kwang) bus from TAipei to Kaoshiung and to my horror saw that the seat next to me was occupied by a lady and her child . AND he had a lunchbox with him. I was thinking "OH now how am I going to have a restful ride with a kid and a mom taking over one seat ( i mean they are not going to fit without the child sitting over into my seat, and IM not THIN to begin with).
But?? to my amazement. This was probably the best behaved little boy i have ever in my life seen !! He was very quiet and mindful not to spill over into my seat and talked softly with his mom and even finished his box lunch (over the course of the 4 and a half hour bus ride) without spilling a kernel of rice. I was simply amazed because I was NEVER that well behaved myself.
and another time flying Cathay from Hongkong back to Taipei I was seated next to two kids (to my horror) but that brother and sister were VERy well behaved and civilized the whole way !!!
But the other thing is this. Respect of other people, especially in closed spaces like trains or “quiet” places like restuarants. If you’re at a restuarant having a nice dinner with your SO, what’s the done thing, culturally, when a kid at the table next to yours is screaming his head off with no restraint? Would it help to ask the parents to keep him/her quiet? Do you just grin and bear it? Or bugger off somewhere else?[/quote]
This not only goes for children but for adults too … imagine a quite dinner party and suddenly in the room nextdoor they start singing karaoke … and not in the best of voices … the point is, people in restaurants don’t give a shit if you’re disturbed by them or their children … they are inconsiderate idiots[/quote]
Its not discipline… its CONSIDERATION for other people, which is a thing I was taught to have from a very young age, and a virtue or trait that is important to most foreigners
Here people will jump in front of you in a queue… if you are talking to a person in a shop they will cut in and start talking… they will let fire crackers off late at night or early in the morning… they will cut you off in traffic… talk or shout to eachother across your face :fume: … let the kids go riot in restuarants… let their kids shout “WAIGOUREN” at you and then expect you to practice the kid’s cram school english with the kid…
Of course if you point any of these inconsiderations out to them and it registers that they may have offended you… they may come back with “PIE SAY” which means “EMBARRASEMENT” , embarrasement to/for them that is
My favorite restaurants do not allow pets or children, and there are a few around. I really don’t give a shit about the ‘rights’ of noisy kids or pets to enter restaurants or other public places where ambience is part of the product being sold. I have my preferences and I am willing to shop around for them. A close second is a better vegetarian place, not a buffet. I don’t know if it’s that vegetarian parents have better standards or if the lack of meat (and the hormones etc.) in the diet changes the behaviour of the kids, but for the most part they are better behaved.
I will usually go talk to the parents of offensive kids. 9 times out of 10 it’s pissing in the wind. If it’s an expensive restaurant I will talk to the manager, ditto on the outcome. The parents propbably grew up in the countryside where they could make as much noise as they wanted. They have not yet adapted to modern urban life, as can be seen in other daily behaviour patterns. Another thing I notice is that parents here have no clue how sugar affects kids. They don’t care about the noise their kids are making and so they just don’t notice that the coke and chocolate diet makes it worse.
I agree with Ironlady on the over-indulgence thing. Taiwanese think that life as an adult is so hard that it’s best to shield the kids from that as long as possible. For boys the surprise comes with high school. For girls it’s the day after the wedding.
Then how come you see news stories of teachers still commonly using spanking as classroom discipline? Apparently Taiwanese kids do get spanked and it doesn’t seem to work. Most students tell me that is was common for their teachers to spank them and I see parents doing it in public. I don’t think it really makes a difference because it is a cultural thing. Why should a kid not run wild in a restaurant if they see other kids doing it all the time? To me it is the parents that need the education and discipline so they can they educate their children. But then they obviously don’t see it that way. To them it is normal behavior. If they aren’t bothered by it then why should someone else be? And in reality how many Taiwanese adults are bothered by it? It could be mostly foreigners.
I was in Dan Ryan’s a few months ago and some people were letting their kids do the run-around-wildly thing. I was slowly steaming because they were ruining the meal I was paying for. I was about to get up and tell the manager either he stops it or I will and then one of my favorite waiters went over and told them that they have to keep their kids seated. I lavishly complimented him. He said he can’t stand that kind of behavior either and that is why he stopped it. However this is very much an exception rather than a rule.
I just spent the last 3 months here living with a Taiwanese extended family that included 2 young girls.
These kids were given free run of the house. The parents would let them run amok, trash my room (often), take food off my plate and start eating it, break my things and say ‘oops!’ shrug etc etc…
It was unbelievable… I said in my broken chinese one day that one of them had hurt me (after she threw a hardcover novel at my head when I was sleeping) and wow… The mother didnt speak to me for about a week, and huffed and puffed around the house, slamming doors etc…
How dare I question the angelic nature of these precious children??
I should not complain because they let me stay there rent free, but I saw first hand the kind of ‘parenting’ that goes on here, and it was basically non existent…
Definitely true a lot of the time, but I think we’ve all seen the incontrollable brats that no parent could have possibly created if they had tried. No, DNA definitely plays a huge role in these things. A bigger role than the parents themselves if you ask me.
I fail to see how is making kids studying 16 hours or more a day with NO free time, NO family time, shielding kids from reality? I think there ought to be people out there teaching parents how to behave. Seriously though, I dont care how “forgiving” other church members are at that coffee bar, that kid breaks stuff again someone ought to be teaching him how to behave and their parents aint doing a very good job at it. Its not about being “christlike” or whatever but its the fact if someone dont teach these kids some manners they are going to get a lot worse once they get old.
Just FYI; the senior/junior thing doesn’t really kick in until after boot camp, and AFAIK it’s not nearly as strong now as it used to be. Also, I think the military system is more of a reflection of society in general than a specific cause of the problems you mention.
Of course with the move from a mostly agricultural economy to an urban one, the little tykes become more and more annoying when they are not controlled at least to some degree, particularly in enclosed, public spaces like trains, busses, and coffee shops.
