Discussion About Racism

Life Dating & Relationships
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I just want to throw in a funny, related story from my own recent experience.

When I was at my girlfriend’s family’s home for Chinese New Year, they were very polite. Weeks before, however, my girlfriend’s Mom was very adamant that she should not marry me. However, when she learned that I was flexible about things such as caring for her (the mother) and supplying her with monthly money (according to our income), as well as that I planned to stay in Taiwan for the long-term, and I was open to sharing the house title with my girlfriend when we buy a home, etc… She became more patient.

I knew that I was in when, after dinner, I overheard the mom telling my girlfriend’s aunt and sister “I’m just so thankful he’s not a black man.”

My advice is to figure out precisely what the parents expect from an ideal boyfriend, and try to be that for your girlfriend and have her stick up for you. Also, try to meet the parents and show you are open to having them in your life, if they’ll accept you. In my opinion, if a foreign boyfriend isn’t willing to conform to the culture of the country he’s in when it comes to marrying and dating locals, he simply has no business marrying or dating locals. You may think the idea of sending 10,000 a month, or paying a brideprice, is bizarre, but, well, that’s just the way it is. Suck it up.

NOTE TO NEWCOMERS: This was relevant and part of a discussion on what to expect when you meet the parents of your Taiwanese girlfriend who do not approve of you. This post was very popular and caused quite a stir, so it shit-stormed out of control into the WW2 of a thread that you see here. Thank you for reading this, now you’re informed.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
I knew that I was in when, after dinner, I overheard the mom telling my girlfriend’s aunt and sister “I’m just so thankful he’s not a black man.” [/quote]

This sounds like a hideous thing to have to hear. How did you react?

3

Laughed. Part of Taiwanese charm. If you’re not ready for that kind of thing, go home :wink:
We have “black man toothpaste” here after all. It’s not meant in a hostile way toward black people. They don’t think them inferior; it’s simply that, to Chinese beauty standards, having children with dark skin is not good.

4

[quote=“wollemi”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]I knew that [color=#FF0000]I was in[/color] when, after dinner, I overheard the mom telling my girlfriend’s aunt and sister “I’m just so thankful he’s not a black man.”[/quote]This sounds like a hideous thing to have to hear. How did you react?[/quote]Congratulations on not being a black man, you are a winner.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]Laughed[/color]. [/quote]Not good. :thumbsdown:

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]Part of Taiwanese [color=#FF0000]charm[/color].[/quote]Wrong. Nothing charming about racism.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]If you’re not ready for that kind of thing, go home[/color] :wink:[/quote]Poor advice.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]We have “black man toothpaste[/color]” here after all.[/quote]It doesn’t validate racism.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]It’s not meant in a hostile way toward black people[/color].[/quote]Wrong.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]They don’t think them inferior[/color];[/quote]Wrong.

[quote=“dashgalaxy86”][color=#FF0000]it’s simply that[/color], to Chinese beauty standards, having children with dark skin is not good.[/quote]Over simplified.

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@the self-righteous dude:

So what would you have me do? Preach to my future inlaw about racism?
Don’t be ridiculous. The problem is that you in your own way are ethnocentric. Stay out of my business. It IS funny, AND it is racist and ignorant too.

So you thought you were witty and decided to break down every fragment and sentence I said just to disagree with me as thoroughly as possible. The bottom line is this: I don’t make it my business to tell a 52 year-old Taiwanese woman that her way of thinking is wrong. I was outnumbered at that table anyway. What could I do but laugh at the adorable ignorance? They’re not trying to keep the black man down. They’re just being selective about who they breed with. To be fair, I wouldn’t date a black woman either. It’s not based on any presumptions or prejudice about intellect or personality, it’s just that I don’t find them physically attractive and wouldn’t be interested in procreating with them. I think that Taiwanese generally feel similarly. I know many Taiwanese who are happy to befriend black men and women, but simply wouldn’t consider dating them. How is it any different from me or many other white, Asian, hispanic, or hell, even black men who say the same thing?

And before you go about extending your ignorant statements to me personally, and go on accusing me of being racist for not wanting to date a black person, let me just pose the question: What am I to do if I don’t find black women attractive? To be sure, there are black women I would date, but they are few and far between here, and where I come from back home, so I’m stuck with making these general statements. Once again it has little to do with any ideological idea about race, and everything to do with personal preferences when it comes to physical attraction.

Go take your self-righteousness back to wherever you’re from, or please at least don’t make me waste my time justifying myself unnecessarily to a kid like you.

EDIT: Asked my girlfriend’s mom why dating a black person would be so bad. She said: “The kids wouldn’t be beautiful.” I told her that in America, people like dark skin. White people and even Asians often try to get a tan. Her response: “This is Taiwan (sweet smile). I’m glad you’re so pale.”

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Wow guys, well to tell the truth, it is hard to be black in Asia, not that asian are racist against them, but more because of ignorance! They think too often that blacks are poor and not good to date, which is absolutely wrong to my point of view. Here in Japan, I have a few good friends who find it hard to seattle down because of this problem, they are black and not respected as much as they should. People are often a bit scared of them, not because of racisms, but because people in Japan (and Taiwan too as it is an Island) aren’t used to see them so often, it’s called “IGNORANCE”, I hate it very much and I feel very often sad for my friends. But as soon as people start to get to know them, they usually accept them very well. They are just too ignorant.
And actually the same happened to me with my gf’s father, he is not so happy about her daughter dating a foreigner, but he said that because I was swiss, he was maybe gonna accept one day, as he likes Switzerland very much. Strange but true

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I’m happy that I’m in no way connected to you or your vile soon-to-be-family. :thumbsup: And you are two-thirds correct. It IS racist and ignorant. It is not, however, funny. “My mom-in-laws hates niggers.” What’s funny about THAT? What hideous cretins you’re getting yourself involved with.

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racism is most of the time due to ignorance. You don’t know, you’ve never seen or meet before, it’s scares you and you become racist! If his mother in law was learning English with a black teacher in Taiwan, maybe she would change her mind and realise that black are not bad after all. But she hasn’t… But I agree with one thing, I wouldnt have laughed about it.

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It’s all about the context, as far as the laughing goes. What’s left to say at this point about that? “You had to be there” :wink: I guess… haha.
And I agree, as I said directly to you in a previous post that these attitudes are more the result of underexposure than unbridled, willing ignorance, though they are definitely that too, to a degree.

10

I think there are parallels here with England 30-50 years ago, when there was an influx of foreigners invited by the government to do jobs not unlike Filipinos, Indonesians, etc do in Taiwan today.

A very ‘genteel’ kind of racism emerged. It wasn’t vicious, just ignorant and provincial. The older generation especially looked askance at foreigners (i.e., non-white people) and wouldn’t want their daughters hooking up with one, but they would have been horrified to hear about the kind of things that went on in the Deep South around the same time. This kind of racism was both lampooned and popularised (if that’s the right word) by TV shows such as Mind Your Language and Till Death Do Us Part. If you can find these on YouTube, the humour seems cringeworthy today.

The fact that it was a non-violent, passive sort of racism doesn’t mean it was OK. I’m mixed-race and I felt very much an outsider during those years. Attitudes changed a lot very quickly, and by the time I was a teenager overt racism had become the hallmark of a chav (although I don’t think chavs had been invented yet). The family members the OP mentions are just ignorant old biddies who have intentionally limited themselves only to what they know. That’s humans for you. You can’t change their minds: they’ve already built their own fences inside their head to keep out ideas they don’t like. However, they will die eventually and the younger generation will have different attitudes. Hopefully.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]@the self-righteous dude:

So what would you have me do? Preach to my future inlaw about racism?
Don’t be ridiculous. The problem is that you in your own way are ethnocentric. Stay out of my business. It IS funny, AND it is racist and ignorant too.
[/quote]
Erm, you brought your business here. And you know what is funny? [quote]supplying her with monthly money [/quote] :roflmao: :roflmao: See now that is ridiculously funny. Not saying, that a daughter or son-in-law should not help out the parents, but for it to be contractual or to quote you “suck it up” is astoundingly hilarious.

:roflmao: Sounds like a financial contract to me, rather than a social one.

:loco: :loco: Paying someone to marry you is crazy. And don’t give me the BS about local custom, not everything old/traditional is right.

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[quote=“divea”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]@the self-righteous dude:

So what would you have me do? Preach to my future inlaw about racism?
Don’t be ridiculous. The problem is that you in your own way are ethnocentric. Stay out of my business. It IS funny, AND it is racist and ignorant too.
[/quote]
Erm, you brought your business here. And you know what is funny? [quote]supplying her with monthly money [/quote] :roflmao: :roflmao: See now that is ridiculously funny. Not saying, that a daughter or son-in-law should not help out the parents, but for it to be contractual or to quote you “suck it up” is astoundingly hilarious.

:roflmao: Sounds like a financial contract to me, rather than a social one.

:loco: :loco: Paying someone to marry you is crazy. And don’t give me the BS about local custom, not everything old/traditional is right.[/quote]
Fair enough, but it’s a choice I made. I actually wasn’t trying to open myself to commentary, but to share a personal experience. Granted, this is a public discussion, but I assure you, my first post about my future mother-in-law was relevant and, through the right lens, could have been used by the OP as important insight into what he might have to expect from Taiwanese culture in the future… Although you’re the moderator here, with the above, very mocking and hostile post, you have taken this brand new thread off topic in a single blow. Nice.

Anyway, there are far more details than what I chose to include in my anecdotes because, well, the topic hadn’t yet become about scrutinizing my life choices. I don’t intend to waste my time explaining my rationale to you, but suffice it to say, my rationale is sound and I am confident in my decision. The “financial contract” is a small part of a much bigger whole. Humans are flawed in that we tend to try to create a big picture, even when truth has revealed very few art supplies… There is a lot more to my situation. Her mom was actually quite welcoming and asked for nothing. I offered to help take care of her in the future because it’s important… She has no solid income, and her husband is dead. I would be a lousy jerk indeed if i intended to steal one of two daughters from this woman (the other daughter is a lesbian), and then neglect to offer any stable support.

People have been trying really hard to make me look bad and insult my future mother-in-law, but she’s no more racist than any of you, and a lot less greedy than perhaps I accidently led people to believe.

By the way, you said “Paying someone to marry you is crazy”… it seems by this statement that you think I’m paying my future in-law so that I can marry her, and not my girlfriend. If you really misunderstand so deeply, I pity you and understand where this silly and immature tone is coming from… If, on the other hand, you do understand what’s going on here but chose to phrase it that way, I have no other choice but to ask: Why is a moderator trolling?

13

Not according to what you wrote. I still know of old biddies my parents’ age who see nothing wrong with taking about “darkies” and whatever. No malice intended, but it is ignorant, racist and anything but funny to most people, nonetheless.
People with such hicksville views should be called on it. They certainly shouldn’t be given a free pass just because they’re Taiwanese and (presumably) don’t know any better. All the MORE reason, in fact, to point out their bumpkinhood to them.
And you’ll be surprised, I’m pretty sure, when it eventually hits you that DAMN! They know perfectly WELL most of the time how offensive they’re being. They just don’t think it matters because THEY’RE not the ones being offended.

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Dear OP, this is a discussion forum. If you are willing to “share a personal experience”, please be prepared to accept contrary views. You sound like a nice person. I split the thread because I think that this is another issue that is worthy of debate. To the detractors: Let’s show a little mutual respect. As a wise man once told me: “Always assume the best in a person”. :bow:

15

Not according to what you wrote. I still know of old biddies my parents’ age who see nothing wrong with taking about “darkies” and whatever. No malice intended, but it is ignorant, racist and anything but funny to most people, nonetheless.[/quote]
:unamused: Mmmmk.
Thanks for proving my point though that this kind of ignorance isn’t exclusive to Taiwanese. Anyway I’m done debating its humor value. I’ll leave you with this… Imagine yourself in that situation. They make this comment. What would you do? Stand up, and indignantly and righteously lecture them? Or, do as I did, and laugh at the ignorance openly, tease them for it, and then move on with the discussion? They truly mean no ill. It disturbs me that people live here, are aware of this ignorance, but, in order to comfort their ethnocentric, self-righteous egos, they (foreigners like us) pretend the locals are a lot more racist, harmful, and aggressive than they really are (when in fact foreigners are far more aggressively racist even to the locals)… Yet somehow the locals’ racism only enters the foreigners’ consciousnesses for the duration of one of these debates, and then it’s locked back in the subconscious, conveniently, so that next time that foreigner can put on a shit-eating grin and feel free to say “I love Taiwan”.

“Sub-human” has been thrown down in this conversation to describe those who share the outdated views that having dark-skinned kids is less than ideal. Since this ignorance is on a cultural level, and most, not just some but indeed most, people in Taiwan are guilty of this value… What for fuck’s sake are you still doing in this country that you are so ready declare backwards and full of cretins and racists?

Quick question: Why do I still have to defend myself? I would think by now everyone should have come around to getting the point. Racism is terrible, in fact it is evil, but it is not an evil committed, but an evil that resides in us all. If you are indeed even a little bit unfairly racist… If you have even one prejudice which may not be true, or have dating preferences based on skin color, or race, or religion, or whatever… then you are as guilty as any old Taiwanese lady. At least they don’t “know better”, but you do, and I guarantee, all of us are guilty or have been guilty on some level. If there’s nothing else, I hope we can simply agree on this point and move on to a more peaceful thread topic… Perhaps “Discussion About Puppies” would be less likely to give me headaches.

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Goalpost-movers are even worse than racists. That’s NOT what you said and its NOT what I took offence at. And its NOT why I’m continuing to engage with you. At all. You simply said you thought it funny.
So you’ve changed your mind and in fact DID think it was racist and you DID call her on it. Thank you for agreeing with me, although if that is what you did, it makes me wonder why you bothered trolling with your “funny” statement. I mean, it MUST have been pure trolling, right? Given that its so far removed from your latest position.[/quote]
Whoa, I said it wasn’t racist? That goes counter to my records, I don’t know about yours. :wink:
It is funny, in an awkward way of course just like when my friend’s grandpa used to let “colored” slip at some family gathering. The kids would all chuckle about it, and the adults would hastily correct them. I’m not, nor was I ever, advocating racism and saying “HAHAHA RACISM IS SO AWESOME AND HUMOROUS AND NOT BAD!”
Sheesh.
Look, the situation was simple. I was sitting down to dinner with them on Chinese New Year. After dinner they were playing Majiang, and, truthfully, my girlfriend overheard it and told me about it, and she laughed, I laughed, then I made an effort to say something to the effect of “Being dark isn’t bad”, and at that point I was brushed off. Recently, after this thread started, I asked my girlfriend’s mom about this again, and I believe I posted what she said here. “Being dark isn’t good for the kids because it’s not beautiful”. And I said, in America, it is considered good to have darker, tanner skin by some people. And she said “This is Taiwan”. That’s it.

Also, which statement was trolling? When I first told the story? That was RIGHT on topic, buddy. I shared that anecdote to give the OP (of the original thread) some insight into what attitudes locals can have. Just saying, if he’s pale and white, it may be advantageous to him. If not, then he knows what to expect. What’s so wrong with that? Why get all self-righteous just because I said it was funny? You don’t know, you weren’t there. Doesn’t mean I’m telling everyone to be racist, but don’t take so seriously the attitudes of older people from a culture with little in common to yours. It’s just the local flavor. Take it as it is… THIS is Taiwan, and you should accept this, not hide it under the rug until some poor guy like me brings it up. If you feel this strongly about racism here, and you know that this persists in actually ALL age groups (I have had classes of 6-year-old children at multiple cram schools say they don’t like black people, and literally laugh when they see a picture of a black kid. That I do NOT laugh at)… then why don’t you just leave, rather than let yourself be surrounded by it if it bothers you so much? I don’t understand.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
Anyway thanks, but I hope we can all come to a peaceful agreement. I don’t want to fight, really, but I feel as though my inlaw and perhaps even I am being unfairly judged and aggressively scrutinized, I’ll just put it that way. I just hope we can find some understanding and put this issue to bed.[/quote]

Well, this is what you gave us to go on:

This is basically a racist opinion by definition. I think we all can imagine the age and cultural background behind it. Still we should call what it is. I for one wouldn’t expect that you jump up and loudly denounce them over it, leave in disgust, etc. but your reaction of “I laughed” and your contortions in explaining why it’s innocent and irrelevant, much less no different than what anyone else here really feels, widely miss the mark in my opinion.

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[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“dashgalaxy86”]
Anyway thanks, but I hope we can all come to a peaceful agreement. I don’t want to fight, really, but I feel as though my inlaw and perhaps even I am being unfairly judged and aggressively scrutinized, I’ll just put it that way. I just hope we can find some understanding and put this issue to bed.[/quote]

Well, this is what you gave us to go on:

This is basically a racist opinion by definition. I think we all can imagine the age and cultural background behind it. Still we should call what it is. I for one wouldn’t expect that you jump up and loudly denounce them over it, leave in disgust, etc. but your reaction of “I laughed” and your contortions in explaining why it’s innocent and irrelevant, much less no different than what anyone else here really feels, widely miss the mark in my opinion.[/quote]

It’s fun to take things out of context, I know, but in many other posts, surprised at the “popularity” of that first one, I did go on to explain and give a lot more to “go on”. This thread is only 3 pages long; educate yourself before you say something uninformed. We’ve moved way past “Is this racist or not?”
Yes, it is. Is it ignorant? Of course. Is it evil? OK, fine, but does that make me or my future mother-in-law evil? I would suppose no more evil than you or sandman here. Anyone who so vehemently takes the issue of race this seriously has something to prove and is probably wrestling with their own inner demons. Don’t take it out on me or a defenseless old underexposed Taiwanese widow who simply wants what she considers to be the best for her grandchildren. Is that an oversimplification? No. It is not. That is the situation, and you can try to make it bigger and more serious than what it is, but that is simply what it is.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]

It’s fun to take things out of context, I know, but in many other posts, surprised at the “popularity” of that first one, I did go on to explain and give a lot more to “go on”.[/quote]

Huh? All I see to go on otherwise in the midst of your long explanations is this:

[quote]

EDIT: Asked my girlfriend’s mom why dating a black person would be so bad. She said: “The kids wouldn’t be beautiful.” I told her that in America, people like dark skin. White people and even Asians often try to get a tan. Her response: “This is Taiwan (sweet smile). I’m glad you’re so pale.”[/quote]

In context, the initial, unsolicited, opinion she offered would seem to tell a lot more of the story than the later statement. Obviously we can’t make any real judgments over a few sentences you posted, but your forceful reactions here don’t square with the facts that we do have.

Again, it’s not surprising at all, but i wouldn’t be so cavalier about it.

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[quote=“dashgalaxy86”]…you may think the idea of paying a brideprice, is bizarre, but, well, that’s just the way it is. Suck it up.
[/quote]

My wife’s father thought, as many Taiwanese do, that a brideprice was a barbaric practice and would never have asked for such a thing. Most families that do ask for it now give it right back to the couple. So you are wrong that we need to suck up the ugly traditions.

A marriage is between two people. If your wife-to-be is not willing to make it a mix of cultures and understand your expectations and values then she has no business marry a foreigner.

Your advice to newbies is very poor, imo.