Do I get a maid?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

Tigerman has some very good points, as a parent you should raise a child, not the nanny or the maid. I can’t speak from any experience here but I would like to raise my childs on my own.
I had a friend in Malaysia who gave his baby to his neighbour at night (which was also helping as a maid during the day) - because he didn’t want to be woken up at night when the baby screams. Strange why those people would want to have children, though perhaps he didn’t know how to use condoms …

[quote]Good points about cameras by Rascal. I think if I was leaving an infant with her I’d be more concerned, but since I’ll have older children with her, and I don’t plan to be away from home much when they’re with her, I don’t think it’s necessary for us.

If you installed cameras, would you be upfront about it and tell her where they were? Or would you keep it from her? I’m not sure how I’d handle it. [/quote]
Don’t tell. If she knows where they are she will behave differently or might find some blind spots to do whatever.

22

I see lots of children in my kindergarten being raised by amahs and nannies. It’s sad because at such a young age they resent their parents dumping them and learn to take these frustrations out on the nannies assuming that the parents model this for them. One four-year-old girl slapped her amah in the face for being late. Another four-year-old boy kicked, bit, and pinched his amah on purpose because he wanted to be picked up by his grandmother. They had no repercussions for dealing with this outrageous and abusive behavior because the parents more or less had little to do with their upbringing. I see some great examples of children whose parents take responsibility for their children with their helpers being just that, but it seems that a few of them abuse the opportunity for help as being a chance for them to take a long vacation from dealing with their kids’ behavior and then don’t know how to handle them when they have to.
And as for bonding, there was a little boy who was 3 at the time getting picked up from school. His mother came up with his nanny lagging behind her at a respectable distance. The mom squatted down, held her arms out with a big grin (the mother looks and dresses and does her makeup to look more like a supermodel than a mother of two) and called the boy like she was God’s gift to this child for showing up only 10 minutes late when all of the other children had already gone home. The boy ran right around his mother like she were an obstacle and practically jumped into the arms of his nanny. I had to fight off laughing while feeling sorry for his mother whose smile disappeared after being throroughly embarrassed by the boy’s behavior. It was obviously apparent which woman loved this boy more. The nanny hasn’t been back to pick him up since that incidence. And his mother’s behavior shows that she’s not comfortable with the idea of being a mother even though she’s been one for 8 years. The fact that she doesn’t usually pick him up until at least half an hour after he’s been dismissed from class is a sign. Especially since she doesn’t work.
Amos, just be careful in letting someone take care of your child full-time. The first three years of a child’s life pretty much determine what kind of person he or she will be for the rest of it and having some stranger being the main caregiver is very risky.

23

I don’t think you’ll get too many flames Tigerman. It isn’t the 80’s anymore.

24

If it was, I apologize, it certainly wasn’t meant as prejudicial, perhaps my choice of words wasn’t appropriate. But when you’re knowledgeable about language learning, as this group surely is, then I think it’s perfectly appropriate to talk about whether or not the nanny speaks the language fluently and appropriately. It’s a practical issue. If she doesn’t, as in my uncle’s case, the kid won’t learn the language properly. I communicate with my niece in the same broken English that I would with EFL students. That’s a failure on his part to understand how language learning takes place at that age. Recognizing the role that a nanny has in teaching your child a language, you should make sure your teacher is qualified. If you were hiring a nanny who would also tutor you kid in math, would you hire someone who had majored in math, or someone who got a 350 (out of 800) on his math SATs? I guess my point is that any native speaker of English, including minorities raised in English speaking countries, are ideal.

But the prejudice that I will admit to having is thinking that I’d want my child to speak proper English. If that’s my crime, I’m guilty as charged. Heck, at least I’m not as snooty as some Brits. American English, however loose an interpretation of the Queen’s English, is good enough for me.

25

[quote=“Neo”]

Recognizing the role that a nanny has in teaching your child a language, you should make sure your teacher is qualified. If you were hiring a nanny who would also tutor you kid in math, would you hire someone who had majored in math, or someone who got a 350 (out of 800) on his math SATs? I guess my point is that any native speaker of English, including minorities raised in English speaking countries, are ideal.

But the prejudice that I will admit to having is thinking that I’d want my child to speak proper English. If that’s my crime, I’m guilty as charged. Heck, at least I’m not as snooty as some Brits. American English, however loose an interpretation of the Queen’s English, is good enough for me.[/quote]

I took offense as well at your earlier post. I was around a Filipina maid as a child and I learned to speak fluent Tagalog as well as English. My brother had a Chinese nanny and learned to speak perfect Mandarin. Both of use have grown up to have very American accents and I can assure you any child around a Filipina maid will not be scarred for life.

What’s wrong with a Filipino accent? How is it any worse than other countries with English as an official language, like South Africa, Jamaica, or, like, the San Fernando valley?

26

[quote=“Flicka”]I took offense as well at your earlier post. I was around a Filipina maid as a child and I learned to speak fluent Tagalog as well as English. My brother had a Chinese nanny and learned to speak perfect Mandarin. Both of use have grown up to have very American accents and I can assure you any child around a Filipina maid will not be scarred for life.[/quote] Couple of anectodes on child language learning. I once met a guy who grew up his whole life in Taiwan…great guy but didn’t speak a word of Mandarin. Apparently between his parents and all the American schools and all the broken English spoken by Taiwanese people, he never learned Mandarin. So that says that his social world managed to get so isolated from Taiwanese society that he literally managed to never learn the language.

I also met a guy here in NY. Really sad case. Chinese American guy. Grew up in a predominantly Asian community in NY and his parents were immigrants who spoke very little English. Between that mix of influences, he never managed to learn much English. Spoke English in a very broken manner, couldn’t pronounce things properly, grammar was off. But the sad part is that he couldn’t speak Chinese either. His parents tried to speak English to him mostly. He didn’t get out much to play with friends, I guess, so all he ended up learning was his parents’ broken English.

Point is, language acquisition is not automatic. If you get lucky and the environment for your child is right, they will learn English. But there are no guarantees. Generally speaking, an integrated social life with local children and families is the best way to ensure the child learns the language well I guess.

The irony here is is too rich. The very raison d’etre of the English teaching industry that employs most of the foreigner community is that Taiwanese parents want their children to speak proper correct English taught by native speakers. So are you going to quit your job in protest now? I’m sure the Taiwanese English Teachers Federation would love to extend a job offer to you.

Protest chants: “Down with pre-ju-dice, we won’t teach-at-Hess!”
Placard: “Hire Taiwanese teachers, no more big noses!”

I personally intend to join any hunger strikes in sympathy protest.

27

What’s wrong with a Filipino accent? How is it any worse than other countries with English as an official language, like South Africa, Jamaica, or, like, the San Fernando valley?[/quote]
It’s worse because some employers look negatively on weird accents for many positions involving contact with customers – reception, sales/marketing, and so on. Some may also take it as a sign that the speaker is uneducated.

“Valley girls”, or at least the women who talk like them, are often regarded as bimbos. A thick Southern drawl is often taken as a sign that the speaker is a hick. Today’s youth, speaking a mix of Ebonics and gangsta rap, are universally regarded as idiots.

As any professional gambler or con-man knows, these impressions can also be useful when giving a royal screwing to opponents. Some businessmen have also learned to use their accents effectively to make rivals think they’re dealing with an idiot.

Overall, who has the better chance to succeed: a child who speaks proper English or one who speaks the argot of a Cebu whore? If all speaking abilities are equal, why would you care which way your child speaks? (Your answer to this question is part of what determines whether you are a politically-correct fool or a parent.)

Impressions matter. This is called reality. Deal with it.

28

Won’t your accent change back if you go back to your parents when you’re young ? The kid picked up one accent, can’t it pick up another ? I’m just asking…

29

[quote=“Neo”][quote=“Flicka”]I took offense as well at your earlier post. I was around a Filipina maid as a child and I learned to speak fluent Tagalog as well as English. My brother had a Chinese nanny and learned to speak perfect Mandarin. Both of use have grown up to have very American accents and I can assure you any child around a Filipina maid will not be scarred for life.[/quote] Couple of anectodes on child language learning. I once met a guy who grew up his whole life in Taiwan…great guy but didn’t speak a word of Mandarin. Apparently between his parents and all the American schools and all the broken English spoken by Taiwanese people, he never learned Mandarin. So that says that his social world managed to get so isolated from Taiwanese society that he literally managed to never learn the language.

I also met a guy here in NY. Really sad case. Chinese American guy. Grew up in a predominantly Asian community in NY and his parents were immigrants who spoke very little English. Between that mix of influences, he never managed to learn much English. Spoke English in a very broken manner, couldn’t pronounce things properly, grammar was off. But the sad part is that he couldn’t speak Chinese either. His parents tried to speak English to him mostly. He didn’t get out much to play with friends, I guess, so all he ended up learning was his parents’ broken English.

Point is, language acquisition is not automatic. If you get lucky and the environment for your child is right, they will learn English. But there are no guarantees. Generally speaking, an integrated social life with local children and families is the best way to ensure the child learns the language well I guess.[/quote]
I think in these cases the parent needed to steer their kids more in the direction of going out, being a little agressive and meeting people and being educated about languages.

The irony here is is too rich. The very raison d’etre of the English teaching industry that employs most of the foreigner community is that Taiwanese parents want their children to speak proper correct English taught by native speakers. So are you going to quit your job in protest now? I’m sure the Taiwanese English Teachers Federation would love to extend a job offer to you.

Protest chants: “Down with pre-ju-dice, we won’t teach-at-Hess!”
Placard: “Hire Taiwanese teachers, no more big noses!”

I personally intend to join any hunger strikes in sympathy protest.[/quote]

I was assuming the original poster was a foreign parent who had never had a maid before, not a local. I think it is in the best interest in the education of a child to be able to hear and learn about different accents and languages, but I agree with Tigerman that you don’t just drop off your kid with the nanny and expect them to be the parent and language educator supreme.

30

[quote=“MaPoDoFu”]
It’s worse because some employers look negatively on weird accents for many positions involving contact with customers – reception, sales/marketing, and so on. Some may also take it as a sign that the speaker is uneducated.

“Valley girls”, or at least the women who talk like them, are often regarded as bimbos. A thick Southern drawl is often taken as a sign that the speaker is a hick. Today’s youth, speaking a mix of Ebonics and gangsta rap, are universally regarded as idiots.

As any professional gambler or con-man knows, these impressions can also be useful when giving a royal screwing to opponents. Some businessmen have also learned to use their accents effectively to make rivals think they’re dealing with an idiot.

Overall, who has the better chance to succeed: a child who speaks proper English or one who speaks the argot of a Cebu whore? If all speaking abilities are equal, why would you care which way your child speaks? (Your answer to this question is part of what determines whether you are a politically-correct fool or a parent.)

Impressions matter. This is called reality. Deal with it.[/quote]

This is the silliest bunch of crap I’ve ever seen. I suppose my Valley Dude-meets-Southern Oregon Hick accent would, in your eyes, make me a Hick Bimbo. Add to that my Philippine upbringing, and I’m a regular whore. Let’s not even get even get started with my Faggot Lisp.

I still think it is in the best interest of a child to have knowledge and exposure to all dialects of the English language, as well as other languages. If I am applying for a job in the US, click-whir I’ll scrap the Cebu whore accent and go for the US Midwest WASP tone of my parents.

A parent who doesn’t limit their children in linguistic education and exposure isn’t a politically correct fool. Neo’s two stories are prime examples of parents who were fools.

If I had to spend all my time worrying that an employer would look negatively on my accent, I wouldn’t have the time to actually bring in results.

You can deal with the fact that I’m successful despite sounding like a Bimbo Hick Whore. That’s called reality.

31

Accents matter to morons. If after all your time in Taiwan or intercultural experience you haven’t worked that much out well God help you!

As for having a maid, what could possibly be wrong with getting more help if you can afford it. Every parent will decide for themselves how much time or otherwise they spend with their kids. A maid means neither more time or less time. It may mean more time for you in terms of releasing you from the binds parenthood can place on your time. However, nothing is written in stone. Tigermans’ comments while nostalgic for the 1940’s mid-west America are basically senseless. Why would somebody with a maid automatically be delinquent about their children? It’s just nonsense.

Maids are great. More maids! More Maids! More Maids! Fewer Morons! Fewer Morons! More maids!

32

I dont agree with the points on a child growing up with a particular accent due to having a maid with that accent . Children gain thier accents more from thier peers & the media than from thier parents/maids (eg If you are both British & living in the US , your children will have US accents if you stay long enough despite you talking to them with an English English accent)

But…to Foxs point, unfortunately there is quite a large body of evidence that indicates that accents do matter to average people (not just morons).
We are all victims of our prejudices wether conscious or sub conscious.
Sorry I’m going off thread here !

[i]Researchers found that a job seekers accent can affect the type of job they get

In a recent experiment, University of North Texas’ director of cooperative education, Dianne Markley, and linguistics professor Patricia Cukor-Avila found that job interviewers make hiring decisions based on their feelings about the applicant’s accent - especially when it comes to sales jobs.

Their study enlisted 56 executives who have some say in hiring decisions. They each listened to recordings of 10 men reciting the same 45-second passage. The 10 speakers were from different regions of the US, and the employers were asked to judge them on qualities such as personality and education level and to guess their native regions. The executives were also asked to list the jobs they might offer to each speaker.

The researchers found that job-seekers with identifiable accents, such as a heavy Southern drawl, were more often recommended for lower-level jobs that offer little client or customer contact, such as support positions. Those with a less identifiable accent, such a Midwest accent, tended to get recommended for higher-contact, higher-profile - and often higher-paying jobs in public relations and marketing.

The study was not designed to determine which accents are “good” or “bad” for job seekers, although the best jobs went to the speakers whose accents couldn’t be tied to a particular region. Texas and other Southern accents got mid level jobs in the study, and the speaker with the New Jersey accent landed at the bottom.

All the speakers had bachelor’s degrees, and several of them also held master’s degrees and doctorates. But some of the executives had guessed that the speakers had significantly less education and placed them in low-level jobs. Some of the test subjects were embarrassed by their reactions when the speakers’ backgrounds were revealed, Ms Markley said.

She added: “The assumptions that they make based on accents may actually mean that they are not making the best decision possible. I think that most of this is unintentional and it’s just a matter of making people aware of it. No legislation is going to change this.” [/i]

33

Amos,

I’d like to agree with some of the others here–but with some sharp differences.

I don’t understand why somebody would want a maid to look after their child when they have the opportunity to do it themselves. That being said, I’d like to agree with Tigerman except that I believe the mother doesn’t have to be the one staying home. If Mom’s making more money, Dad might consider being the one to take a few years off to look after the children.

Kudos to Braxtonhicks who’s still there for her kids. And I can understand wanting a maid just to have a helping hand with all of the other things that can overwhelm a parent’s life. I applaud her for her priorities.

What I can’t understand is any parent abdicating their place in their child’s life to a paid worker making little over minimum wage. While some maids can be wonderful, they will never give the time, energy, love, and values that you are able to give. Your career is a choice. So is parenthood. But both are full-time jobs.

I seriously think you should reconsider this decision. I am hoping that you can consider that there are times in your life that your career should take a backseat to other parts of your life. As tempting as it may be right now, you have to realize that this time gives you and your wife the greatest opportunity to impact your child’s life. I believe that many women are discovering lately that the faded mantra of “having it all” didn’t work for them. I only hope that more men can discover this as well. Being a parent is extremely rewarding–and the benefits last far beyond your career.

You ever consider working from home?

34

Do you have children? I doubt it, but if so, go ahead and get some girl fresh from the kampung and have her raise your children. It will be interesting to see how things work out. :laughing:

35

I met a guy who bought a baby crocodile. Got bored with it flushed it down the toilet. It then grew to be 5 m. long and preyed on people using the subway. Its now eaten 27 commuters.

Sorry Neo, but language acquisition is automatic. Researchers have been studying this question for years and unless the individual is severely mentally handicapped (and I mean severe - individuals with diseases such as Down’s still acquire language). Even in environments which appear not conducive to learning language - the mother speaks one language the father another, relatives a third and their communty a fourth, both parents are deaf and dumb, or where no one directly talks to an infant they still get it.

The one possible exception was a child called “Genie” in California. Her father had locked her in a room with no human contact except having her meals delivered. No words were ever used in her presence. When she was rescued by social services at the age of 13 she had never been spoken to. She had difficulties ever acquiring language. However, even this case is not clear cut as it is impossible to be sure that she is not mentally handicapped. The reason is if someone cannot express themselves by manipulating the syntax, semantics, and pragmatics of a language there is no way to assess their intelligence as being higher than that of being mentally impaired. Therefore, your NY friend would have automatically picked up either Chinese or English or both. If he didn’t he was either kept in a box for 13 years or he is handicapped. The fact that he might be inarticulate just means he’s not that smart or if he uses a non standard grammar that is just the grammar used by the society or social group he is part of.

36

There are so many different facets in language learning that you cannot simply pinpoint your child’s potential language learning experience on what accept his or her nanny has unless that child will be spending a very significant time with that person with no other input from other sources.
People can change accents easily with their environment as we tend to want to blend in with our peers linguistically, even if we aren’t aware of it. While I was studying abroad in France, I made friends with several Brits. In speaking to them, I began to pick up their accent a little…as well as picking up a French accent specific to the region in which I was studying. It’s been shown that children will pick up the accent of their peers more than of their parents since they are trying to fit in with their peers. I taught a foreigner child among my class of ESL preschoolers last year and despite being a native speaker, he began using chinglish saying things like “I want” or “My home has a…” because that’s what his peers were saying, as well as picking up my American English accent and words like saying “cookie” instead of “biscuit”.

As for the unfortunate guy from a Chinese-American family, my school understands language learning well and tells the parents to not use English at home unless its the parents’ native language. Number one, is what I call the photocopier effect. The parents learned English as a foreign language from a native speaker so they have a copy of the language in them. If they teach it to their children, then they have a copy of a copy which is the language, but not as comprehensible as the original. All the little hiccups the parents have developed in English whether in pronunciation, syntax, or usage will be magnified in their children. Number two, the children need a base in Chinese so they can understand concepts in English. If a kid can’t recognize the numbers 1-20 using Mandarin, then he’s going to be lost when his English kindergarten class starts learning how to add. The case of that man who isn’t any good at either language is a prime example of both of these. Number three, the children, at least at my school, spend 6-1/2 hours a day in an English-immersion preschool, listening to English, speaking English, reading English, viewing things in English, doing activities in English so that when they get home and can use Mandarin again, the last thing they might want is for Mom and Dad to make them use English when in their comfort zone. It’s the easiest way to burn a kid out on learning English and make them hate and resent learning the language which is counter-productive to them picking it up. Plus, it causes them confusion…if they speak English at school and then speak it at home, then when do they use their first language?

Besides, accent has little to do with syntax. If your child’s language teacher does not have acceptable, coherent syntax, it’s more difficult to fix that than any pronunciation problems that might occur from having an ESL speaker who has no training in teaching English teaching your kid English. If you want your kid to learn a second language proficiently then either put them into an immersion program whether a full-day, half-day, or play sessions with a native speaker or hire a native-speaker to care for the child. It just doesn’t make sense to have someone who has no training in teaching nor the benefit of speaking it natively to teach your child a second language.

That would be like hiring me, having only one year of formal instruction in Mandarin, to teach your child Chinese. :?

37

ImaniOU,

Use paragraphs man.

38

All this theory is all well and good, but all I can say is I wouldn’t bet my child’s language skills on some study done by some assistant professor churning out another paper so he/she can get tenure. I have met real people with real language problems, but the only linguistic problem they were born with was parents who didn’t know any better raising them.

Sure, someone will eventually learn a language. But do they learn it well enough to get by or do they learn it well enough to excel? I guess it comes down to the type of parent you are. Does the type B egalitarian naturalist in you win out and you figure you just want your kid to be average for kids in the neighborhood? If one parent and the nanny are the only English speakers the kid will interact with, and the nanny’s English isn’t so hot, then so be it, the kid’s main language should be Mandarin or Taiwanese anyways since he/she is growing up in Taiwan. Or, does the type A soccer parent in you think that maybe someday you’ll move back to the West and you want your kid to be on the same linguistic level as his peers, knowing that what you do today may be the difference between your kid getting A-'s in English class versus C-'s? Between reading for fun and reading for school?

Amos- Screw the kid. Just get an alluring French maid in one of those sinfully tight black and white maid outfits… “But Monsieur, do I really need to bend over one more time to clean underneath the couch?”

39

I think a point people are missing here is that they are assuming that the nanny is totally responsible for the child’s language learning. While I can understand that people may be busy and need to employ someone to help care for their children. But if this means that they then neglect to take an interest in their child’s development it is truly sad.

Sure the child may spend a lot of time with the nanny and pick up a lot of language from her. But hopefully when the parents are at home they pay attention to the child, talk to it, read to it and take an interest in the child’s development. If the parents are unable to do these things then they shouldn’t be having children in the first place.

Also a child is likely to acquire a significant amount of language from watching TV in this day and age. I’m yet to hear a kid who speaks like the characters on a cartoon though.

40

hahahahaha

what’s up, doc?