Do NGOs actually do anything?

Politics International Politics
1

[quote=“fred smith”]
I think that corporations get demonized too much.I think that the useless shits who populate UN and Environmental (sorry climate change) conferences are a whole lot more worthy of the “fucking useless” moniker. At least oil companies produce something and they pay taxes. Should they get tax breaks? incentives? NO. Should they have to pay more than other corporations just because dumbasses think oil/gas companies are evil? Hell no.[/quote]

If it weren’t for groups like that we’d be far worse off. They may have a lot of annoying people but they help us protect areas of beauty, deal with Ozone depletion, highlight overfishing, deforestation etc etc. You can thumb your nose at them all you like - it’s your right. But please don’t pretend they haven’t had a positive influence on our overall quality of life. :2cents:

2

The last climate change conferance had 50,000 attendees fly into Copenhagen for whatever it was, a week, two weeks? stay in, I am guessing, fairly expensive hotels and between the lot of them they came up with almost nothing, or perahps worse than nothing with all that carbon trading bullshit. A good idea would have been to take the twenty or forty million that that conferance cost and used it to supply solar panels to communities off of the electrical grid in Africa and hold the conferance over the internet. That would have been one good suggestion, there could have been others, but that was the event that told me there were a lot of hypocritical tree huggers out there and not much of what I have seen since has disuaded me has disuaded me from that general impression.

Next point: A corporation is limited in it’s liabilities and legally obligated to seek profit. Given that model it is unsurprising that a good many have become what people would describe as being “evil.” Apparently they have been the focus of a great deal of animosity in the past…

youtube.com/watch?v=LtGs09YLH9s

Ironic, isn’t it?

Oil companies have lobbied governments in their favor for decades. To the point that even the rebublican congress considered awhile ago impossing one time winfall tax on them. You are probably familiar with the history. Anyway, given that while the world has been going through one economic crisis after another they have been racking up even greater profits (they seems to break a record every quarter) it would seem a reckoning is due and it probably won’t happen, in part because too much of what passes for the left these days is composed of hypocritical intellectuals. Another bunch is a load of fucking morons and that leaves a sliver of sense to be found somewhere on either side of centre, more left that centre because if they lean right at all they probably suffer from the delusion that someday THEY will be able to grow stinking rich and fuck everybody over too. Anyway, I visited the occupy Taipei site today. They were selling, or giving away, whiskey and coke, nothing was in English and I doubt I would have found a clear head among them. Hope I was wrong, but I mentioned to them earlier that the movement needed to focus on acheiving more economic equality worldwide by ensuring that taxes were actually COLLECTED from the super wealthy and all I got was a disdainful shrug.

Last Point: The video I posted earlier about the flooding in Australia was taken way UP river, not in Brisbane, and no, that kind of flooding had never been seen before, according to the man being interviewed.

I wikied 1974 and 2011 floods, just as an example since you threw out that date, and came up with the following…

1974 floods…

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit … 974+floods

2011 floods…

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit … 011+floods

2010 floods…

en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit … e=advanced

Now, I am no scientist but it sure as it looks like the world is getting warmer (scientists all say that.) More water is evaporating because of the higher temperatures and a helluva lotta rain has been the consequence.

3

There’s about a 3:1 ration of funding Republicans vs Democrats from oil and gas industries. Energy/Natural Resources Top Contributors, 2011-2012 . Why would you limit discussion on contributions to just Obama and Democrats? especially in the case of companies like Koch Industries something like 97% of contributions to Republicans. That makes no sense.

There are websites that have been documenting Exxon, although since being exposed on the web, there seems much less information over the past few years. FUNDING FROM EXXON-MOBIL Such as the Competitive Enterprise Institute or look at some of Koch Industries funding, say 5 million to Americans for Prosperity who in turn

[quote]Americans for Prosperity circulated a pledge to government officials that states that the official will oppose any climate change legislation that will result in a net increase in government revenue.[25]
As of August 2010, more than 600 lawmakers and candidates, primarily Republicans, had signed the pledge.[/quote] Americans for Prosperity I’m not suggesting that Koch is their main source of income, just well, the goals of Americans for prosperity and dozens of other pressure groups are financially beneficial to them and seems to be quite successful in becoming political policy. This is common sense Fred.

The fact other issues are more prominent in the news, hardly means there is increasing doubt, as the case of Richard Muller recently illustrated, the science is more compelling than ever.

4

So much concern… so much MONEY… so many wannabe Al Gores making money while being concerned professionally, purposefully, lucratively… what is the final result of all this money spent? 30’35 years of concern, research, grants, formation of NGOs, travel, conferences and? and? and? well, the results do not need a computer model. Jack shit has been achieved and THAT is the point? Why fund more of it? just to make oneself feel better about one´s carbon cough cough footprint. Well, how´s about I sit my big fat ass down and leave an assprint the size of the Antarctic peninsula… or maybe an SUV or a suburban housewife who has yet to discover Thigh Master. But squeal… the polar bears… but squeal… global warming… but squeal melting Arctic ice… but squeal Mother Earth has a fever… but but BUTT is more like it.

5

Well, isn’t the fact that not much has been done largely the result of Big Oil blocking the green movement?

6

Wanna show me some evidence of that or would you like to be one of the other sheep who shows up wearing a V for vendetta mask at the next occupy movement? God the thought of it… I remember so many people watching that movie and being INSPIRED but there you are… no one said the left was filled with the best and brightest only the most caring, concerned and earnest… just like little girls and ponies and both are going on the same ride and leaving the same trail of shit behind them. I´ll bet you look nice in pigtails though… and your unicorn stationery probably also has rainbows… God the thought! excuse the latter noun… I know that it must come as something shocking and highly undesirable to your concerns.

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Wanna show me some evidence of that or would you like to be one of the other sheep who shows up wearing a V for vendetta mask at the next occupy movement? God the thought of it… I remember so many people watching that movie and being INSPIRED but there you are… no one said the left was filled with the best and brightest only the most caring, concerned and earnest… just like little girls and ponies and both are going on the same ride and leaving the same trail of shit behind them. I´ll bet you look nice in pigtails though… and your unicorn stationery probably also has rainbows… God the thought! excuse the latter noun… I know that it must come as something shocking and highly undesirable to your concerns.[/quote]

I’m wearing a rainbow colored V for Vendetta mask right now, actually!

Evidence? I mean isn’t it common knowledge that big oil companies aggressively lobby at the state and federal level to avoid tougher GHG emissions or a carbon tax?

8

So should be very easy to find that evidence given that all of this is common cough cough knowledge.

Also, oil-gas companies dump tons into greening their image and I think that is an exalted form of blackmail akin to indulgences during the Middle Ages. Total bullshit but let me know when you have the numbers on lobbying and while you are at it supply the financial support that oil and gas companies provide to environmental organizations and bullshit climate change NGOs as part of their corporate social responsibility. I´ll bet the numbers surprise you.

9

So should be very easy to find that evidence given that all of this is common cough cough knowledge.

Also, oil-gas companies dump tons into greening their image and I think that is an exalted form of blackmail akin to indulgences during the Middle Ages. Total bullshit but let me know when you have the numbers on lobbying and while you are at it supply the financial support that oil and gas companies provide to environmental organizations and bullshit climate change NGOs as part of their corporate social responsibility. I´ll bet the numbers surprise you.[/quote]

Perhaps unnecessary to prove common knowledge?

If you have any interesting figures on how much Big Oil spends on lobbying vs donating to bona fide environmental groups, I am willing to hear you out.

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So should be very easy to find that evidence given that all of this is common cough cough knowledge.

Also, oil-gas companies dump tons into greening their image and I think that is an exalted form of blackmail akin to indulgences during the Middle Ages. Total bullshit but let me know when you have the numbers on lobbying and while you are at it supply the financial support that oil and gas companies provide to environmental organizations and bullshit climate change NGOs as part of their corporate social responsibility. I´ll bet the numbers surprise you.[/quote]

Perhaps unnecessary to prove common knowledge?

If you have any interesting figures on how much Big Oil spends on lobbying vs donating to bona fide environmental groups, I am willing to hear you out.[/quote]

Common knowledge is like common sense. No need to be proven or subject to objective judgement. All of us produce carbon dioxide, so we should all be taxed for breathing. :whistle:

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[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]
Common knowledge is like common sense. No need to be proven or subject to objective judgement. All of us produce carbon dioxide, so we should all be taxed for breathing. :whistle:[/quote]

If you can disprove that Big Oil lobbies against tougher rules on GHG and a Carbon Tax, I’d be shocked.

Anyway, we should only be taxed for emitting methane in public!

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[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Charlie Phillips”]
Common knowledge is like common sense. No need to be proven or subject to objective judgement. All of us produce carbon dioxide, so we should all be taxed for breathing. :whistle:[/quote]

If you can disprove that Big Oil lobbies against tougher rules on GHG and a Carbon Tax, I’d be shocked.

Anyway, we should only be taxed for emitting methane in public![/quote]

Common sense would dictate that Big Oil lobbies against tougher rules on GHG and a Carbon Tax. As they should! Any oil company that isn’t doing so is failing in its duties to it’s shareholders. The carbon tax idea is completely silly. All it will do is raise energy prices and make the US even more uncompetitive. Adding these costs to big oil will do nothing to improve the global warming situation. Also, interms of so called ‘Big Oil’ those companies only make up a small amount of the total world oil production. 16 of the 20 largest oil companies in the world are state run companies. So yet again people are looking to governments for a solution to a so called problem of which governments are one of the largest contributors.

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That’s like saying it isn’t in the interests of forestry companies to replant as it just adds costs. Or tobacco companies were right to lobby against studies that showed a link between cancer and smoking and equally right to fund studies that would obscure the link.

Just how far are you willing to absolve corporate self-interest?

14

That’s like saying it isn’t in the interests of forestry companies to replant as it just adds costs. Or tobacco companies were right to lobby against studies that showed a link between cancer and smoking and equally right to fund studies that would obscure the link.

Just how far are you willing to absolve corporate self-interest?[/quote]

What nonsense. Your forestry companies analogy isn’t even valid. Unless you’re going to try to tell me that you’ve come up with a way for Oil companies to ‘plant oil seeds’ in their depleted well to grow more oil :laughing: Absolving corporate interests? what nonsense. Like so many you are focused on the short term. All this outrage of so called Big Oil profits. It’s only in the last few years that companies like Exxon have made large profits and even then their ROI (return on investment) has been average. These companies are required to make massive reinvestments into their businesses just to maintain reserves and they are still fighting a losing battle. I see so many people here critisizing a business they have little or no understanding of.

As for your goofy ass tobacco analogy, well if you can demonstrate that tobacco is critical in maintaining our standard of living like energy is then maybe you have a valid point. But until you do all you’re doing is substituting dramatics for facts.

You haven’t even made any attempt to demostrate how a carbon tax on ‘Big Oil’ would even be helpfull in addressing gloabal warming in any real manner considering they are a small piece of world oil production. Like it or not, global transportation is dependant on liquid fuels. Eventually other technology will become viable but right now there are no economically viable alternatives.

Folks here want to focus of ‘Big Oil’ which is a term for the large American producers and you want to impose extra costs on the American industry forgetting the GHG is a global issue. Your carbon tax will just render American firms more uncompetitive and then you’ll all be in another thread crying about out sourced jobs.

There’s more to this issue than links to articles about issues these ‘instant experts’ only superficially understand and crappy ill fitting analogies about an industry that they are by an large completely ignorant of interms of both what its challanges are and how their very standard of living are supported by it.

15

Typical… you made the assertion regarding lobbying fees, prove your point. Don´t ask me to do so. When I have your numbers I will be happy to go on and reveal the amount that oil companies are paying to fund NGOs and other Do Gooders involved in climate change mitigation and adaption. Get to work. Oh the irony of telling that to a liberal do gooder. :unamused:

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Typical… you made the assertion regarding lobbying fees, prove your point. Don´t ask me to do so. When I have your numbers I will be happy to go on and reveal the amount that oil companies are paying to fund NGOs and other Do Gooders involved in climate change mitigation and adaption. Get to work. Oh the irony of telling that to a liberal do gooder. :unamused:[/quote]

Ha ha! You asked me to prove something obvious, that Big Oil lobbies against tighter GHG restrictions. This is common knowledge. If you want to disprove it, then do so.

Don’t ask me to waste my time proving the obvious.

17

[quote]Ha ha! You asked me to prove something obvious, that Big Oil lobbies against tighter GHG restrictions. This is common knowledge. If you want to disprove it, then do so.

Don’t ask me to waste my time proving the obvious.[/quote]

I think that after this nonsense, you may want to emulate Muzhaman and run off somewhere. You are beneath contempt. But… we already knew that…

18

Agreed that oil and gas companies should not be demonized. In fact, I use oil and gas myself. Life sure would be damn difficult without them, and you know what? I wouldn’t have a clue how to get the stuff myself.

On the other hand, carbon based fuels do lead to GHG emissions. It would be in everyone’s best interests if there were less of these emissions.

Higher fuel efficiency standards for cars and trucks, more R’n’D for alternative energy, a very small carbon tax to motivate the former and fund the latter. This would be good and very simple. But of course, the oil, gas and auto companies would oppose this, regardless of their greenwash.

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Why do you automatically assume that oil and gas companies would oppose this? and given the amounts that have been given to environmental organizations as I have posted, it would seem to indicate that oil and gas companies are giving just as much or more against their core interests as interpreted cynically on this forum. What gives?

20

See even Mick agrees, albeit subconsciously, that the IPCC is a bunch of louses-lice.

:sunglasses: :bravo:

I disagree with the dichotomy as presented earlier. There is more choice than global warming happening or not and man´s contribution. The more important point is what can man do about it and I, for one, do NOT support funding a bunch of asswipe feel good NGOs that contribute nothing while hypocrtically flying around doing the very sorts of things that they will not allow others to do because they are doing so for the (sing along with me now) good of humanity and Mother Earth.