Do the Taiwanese have a Conscience?

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
61

Im racist because i say that taiwan has a lot of beautiful taiwanese girls? Well then im racist. Not mentioning that I am planning on marrying an indonesian girl. lets not let facts get in the way of a good story. :loco:
’
because im half taiwanese i used to be “naturally friendly” and inviting of foreigners coming over for the taiwan experience.

now im not so sure. Now i think that many are ill suited to life on taiwan, perhaps even ill suited to even visit.

I definitely think individual mileage will vary greatly and no longer blanketly promote the rock for all.

now i tend to say , if it doesnt work out for you ,then exercise your right to dismiss yourself from the rock.

I have a personal attachment to the place as its where i was hatched and grew up. So i tend to be biased , even “racist” as some would say. :whistle:

62

It’s also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots’ bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours’ pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven’t yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local “culture” depends on exactly where you’re standing, I guess.

63

It’s also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots’ bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours’ pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven’t yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local “culture” depends on exactly where you’re standing, I guess.[/quote]

Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn’t anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?!

64

It’s also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots’ bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours’ pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven’t yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local “culture” depends on exactly where you’re standing, I guess.[/quote]

Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn’t anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?![/quote]
You wouldn’t want them to lose face, would you? :noway:

65

Yeah … there is that. Have a look at this: Fines levied for improper disposal of sandbags
The headline is actually misleading. Absolutely nobody is being fined. The fine is a purely theoretical concept, like the Higgs boson - people assume it exists, but it doesn’t impinge on their everyday lives. Basically, I think the biggest reason for this sort of thing is the “don’t cause trouble” culture. “Causing trouble” really equates to not pointing out when someone else is doing something wrong, because that causes them to lose face, which is, like, um, bad, mmkay? That removes two huge engines that normally drive social change: 1) disapproval of one’s peers, followed by shame and self-correction; and 2) since pointing out wrongdoing is the entire basis of the law and the police force, those institutions don’t have their intended function in Taiwan.

66

It’s also worth pointing out that many Taiwanese are equally appalled by (some of) their compatriots’ bad behaviour: shite driving, burning/flytipping trash, beating their kids, gangs, petty corporate/political skulduggery, poisoning their neighbours’ pets and general antisocial behaviour. As in any country, you get the dregs who haven’t yet evolved beyond eating, humping, and scratching their ass, and you get a whole bunch of other people who think those people are the dregs. Which group you consider to represent the local “culture” depends on exactly where you’re standing, I guess.[/quote]

Well, this is the thing that angers me most about Taiwan. Why doesn’t anyone do anything about this ill behaviour?! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!?!?!?![/quote]
You wouldn’t want them to lose face, would you? :noway:[/quote]

Yes, I would love them to lose face! Damn this face. I’ve seen parents/teachers pound this concept into their children as early as preschool! FFS.

Yeah … there is that. Have a look at this: Fines levied for improper disposal of sandbags
The headline is actually misleading. Absolutely nobody is being fined. The fine is a purely theoretical concept, like the Higgs boson - people assume it exists, but it doesn’t impinge on their everyday lives. Basically, I think the biggest reason for this sort of thing is the “don’t cause trouble” culture. “Causing trouble” really equates to not pointing out when someone else is doing something wrong, because that causes them to lose face, which is, like, um, bad, mmkay? That removes two huge engines that normally drive social change: 1) disapproval of one’s peers, followed by shame and self-correction; and 2) since pointing out wrongdoing is the entire basis of the law and the police force, those institutions don’t have their intended function in Taiwan.[/quote]

But, doesn’t shame come in the form of not wanting to lose face (especially for your family), therefore the disincentive to do anything wrong. Well, I guess it’s not most people that do anything wrong… just a couple of douchebags… therefore, your theory is correct.

The police here need to get more cojones!!! Maybe the government is afraid of even hinting martial law, which is why the police don’t have as much power as they did in the past…

67

God! That’s horrible! Haven’t seen anything like that except one time on the outskirts of Edinburgh. And it was cars, not scooters.

68

I get the feeling “face” doesn’t work like that. “Face” is the nearest equivalent English word, but it’s really not correct.

In many cultures, shame (or the fear of shame) is essentially a positive thing. It acts as a personal restraint, making sure bad things don’t happen, or happen less often. Or, if after the fact, shame can lead to reconciliation.

There are two big differences in Taiwan. Firstly, shame is considered an entirely negative emotion. To cause someone to feel shame (ie., to “lose face”) is a terrible insult to that person, regardless of whether he should feel shame, because the connection between shame and social (or personal) improvement does not exist. In other words, if you are made to feel shame, there is no way to relieve yourself of it; no ‘redemption’, if you like. So the shamed person lashes out, because they perceive that they are being hurt for no purpose. I sometimes wonder if this reaction stems from the ‘self-criticisms’ which were forced upon people during the Cultural Revolution. Secondly, doing something wrong does not make you lose face, because while shame is personal, losing face is an external thing; it’s something that’s done to you, rather than something that happens inside your head. So only getting caught makes you lose face. Obviously, that isn’t an exclusively Chinese phenomenon, but I think the culture here does something to encourage it.

Just my daily dose of pop psychology. Could all be bollocks, of course. I’m just trying to describe my personal understanding of what’s meant by ‘face’ and ‘丟臉’.

69

Here are two simplistic charts that pose the difference between shame and guilt cultures: doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

70

I get the feeling “face” doesn’t work like that. “Face” is the nearest equivalent English word, but it’s really not correct.

In many cultures, shame (or the fear of shame) is essentially a positive thing. It acts as a personal restraint, making sure bad things don’t happen, or happen less often. Or, if after the fact, shame can lead to reconciliation.

There are two big differences in Taiwan. Firstly, shame is considered an entirely negative emotion. To cause someone to feel shame (ie., to “lose face”) is a terrible insult to that person, regardless of whether he should feel shame, because the connection between shame and social (or personal) improvement does not exist. In other words, if you are made to feel shame, there is no way to relieve yourself of it; no ‘redemption’, if you like. So the shamed person lashes out, because they perceive that they are being hurt for no purpose. I sometimes wonder if this reaction stems from the ‘self-criticisms’ which were forced upon people during the Cultural Revolution. Secondly, doing something wrong does not make you lose face, because while shame is personal, losing face is an external thing; it’s something that’s done to you, rather than something that happens inside your head. So only getting caught makes you lose face. Obviously, that isn’t an exclusively Chinese phenomenon, but I think the culture here does something to encourage it.

Just my daily dose of pop psychology. Could all be bollocks, of course. I’m just trying to describe my personal understanding of what’s meant by ‘face’ and ‘丟臉’.[/quote]

Great analysis… this seems to be it.

Holy shit… Taiwanese (Chinese) culture is a shame culture (thanks for the awesome read, photi… kinda makes me want to go back to university). Here are some relevant ideas about shame culture for everyone too lazy to read the article (but, please do look at the charts, at least):

  • Shame culture appears to give people the licence to engage in secret wrong-doing… because if nobody finds out, you are not shamed (as finley pointed out).
  • Suspicion becomes sufficient to convict in judicial terms… this happens all the time in Taiwan.
  • Psychologically, guilt is proclaimed to be a more “advanced” emotion than shame: Erikson’s popular model of personality development sees the emergence of basic shame as part of the second stage in the growth of the ego, but guilt as the third. (European and North American cultures are guilt cultures, although shame is practised within families and small social circles.)

Holy shit, finley, you discovered this on your own!

71

Do the Scots have earlobes?
Do the Americans have manners?
Do the Saffas have tastebuds?
Do the Indians feel remorse?

What a stupid thread, and it’s not in temp no more. :unamused:

Do the Brits have the urge to purge? :roflmao:

72

I guess my point is that whether Crystaleye is deserves ‘punishment’ or not, I don’t find it very funny. Being a basket case isn’t very funny, either.
Of course it is not right to lambaste an entire race, but there must be some cause and effect here for Crystaleye to have such a dramatic u-turn in his perception of the Chinese and Taiwanese cultures and way of life which encourages him to be so negatively outspoken. For me, Northcoast Surfer’s post illustrates some personal trouble or deeper conflict concerning the person involved which has evolved over a couple of years and this suggests personal issues which extend far deeper than being racist for the sake of being racist or ranting for the sake of ranting - it’s just not that clear cut.
It’s not for me to remotely analyse the mind of a person I have never met and don’t even know, but please do excuse me if I don’t see the humour in all of this.

Yes, but as different people contribute and the thread goes off on a tangent, threads like this become interesting because you can actually learn something. And then the thread becomes un-stupid.

73

Having a conscience is very important.

74

[quote=“shawn_c”]

  • Shame culture appears to give people the licence to engage in secret wrong-doing… because if nobody finds out, you are not shamed (as finley pointed out).
  • Suspicion becomes sufficient to convict in judicial terms… this happens all the time in Taiwan.
  • Psychologically, guilt is proclaimed to be a more “advanced” emotion than shame: Erikson’s popular model of personality development sees the emergence of basic shame as part of the second stage in the growth of the ego, but guilt as the third. (European and North American cultures are guilt cultures, although shame is practised within families and small social circles.)[/quote]

This paper goes a bit further and even talks specifically about guilt and shame in Chinese culture: ntur.lib.ntu.edu.tw/bitstream/24 … 4/1/31.pdf
This is another interesting one about Roma culture: pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADM192.pdf

75

[quote=“finley”][
There are two big differences in Taiwan. Firstly, shame is considered an entirely negative emotion. To cause someone to feel shame (ie., to “lose face”) is a terrible insult to that person, regardless of whether he should feel shame, because the connection between shame and social (or personal) improvement does not exist. In other words, if you are made to feel shame, there is no way to relieve yourself of it; no ‘redemption’, if you like. So the shamed person lashes out, because they perceive that they are being hurt for no purpose. I sometimes wonder if this reaction stems from the ‘self-criticisms’ which were forced upon people during the Cultural Revolution. [/quote]

Um, the Cultural revolution took place in China in the 1960s and 70s, not in Taiwan. Even though millions of Chinese fled to exile in Taiwan, they didn’t import the Cultural Revolution gene with them as they were the KMT losers of the civil war, not the Communists.

It probably far predates the Cultural Revolution, and most likely predates the Japanese colonial period too, although it might be some weird combination of Japanese and Chinese versions of the concept of face.

[quote]
Just my daily dose of pop psychology. Could all be bollocks, of course. [/quote]

quite.

76

Very simplistic indeed.
Sociology is a wonderful thing. Reminds one that social sciences are mostly bunk.

77

[quote=“divea”]Do the Scots have earlobes?
Do the Americans have manners?
Do the Saffas have tastebuds?
Do the Indians feel remorse?
Do the Brits have the urge to purge? :roflmao:[/quote]

no

no

no

no

sometimes.

78

I guess my point is that whether Crystaleye is deserves ‘punishment’ or not, I don’t find it very funny. Being a basket case isn’t very funny, either.
Of course it is not right to lambaste an entire race, but there must be some cause and effect here for Crystaleye to have such a dramatic u-turn in his perception of the Chinese and Taiwanese cultures and way of life which encourages him to be so negatively outspoken. For me, Northcoast Surfer’s post illustrates some personal trouble or deeper conflict concerning the person involved which has evolved over a couple of years and this suggests personal issues which extend far deeper than being racist for the sake of being racist or ranting for the sake of ranting - it’s just not that clear cut.
It’s not for me to remotely analyse the mind of a person I have never met and don’t even know, but please do excuse me if I don’t see the humour in all of this.

Yes, but as different people contribute and the thread goes off on a tangent, threads like this become interesting because you can actually learn something. And then the thread becomes un-stupid.[/quote]

I totally agree with you on both points, Super Hans. And we all know, that we live life from our own experience… sometimes, the most wonderful place can seem like a hell-hole, simply based on chance experiences that a particular person had. The opposite can also be true.

[quote=“photi”][quote=“shawn_c”]

  • Shame culture appears to give people the licence to engage in secret wrong-doing… because if nobody finds out, you are not shamed (as finley pointed out).
  • Suspicion becomes sufficient to convict in judicial terms… this happens all the time in Taiwan.
  • Psychologically, guilt is proclaimed to be a more “advanced” emotion than shame: Erikson’s popular model of personality development sees the emergence of basic shame as part of the second stage in the growth of the ego, but guilt as the third. (European and North American cultures are guilt cultures, although shame is practised within families and small social circles.)[/quote]

This paper goes a bit further and even talks specifically about guilt and shame in Chinese culture: ntur.lib.ntu.edu.tw/bitstream/24 … 4/1/31.pdf
This is another interesting one about Roma culture: pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADM192.pdf[/quote]

Thanks! This is one paper that I’m going to devour.

Very simplistic indeed.
Sociology is a wonderful thing. Reminds one that social sciences are mostly bunk.[/quote]

I disagree.

Social science is an important field of study, which although not usually economically rewarding, is rewarding in so many other ways. But, it can be economically rewarding.

79

[quote=“shawn_c”]
Social science is an important field of study, which although not usually economically rewarding, is rewarding in so many other ways. But, it can be economically rewarding.[/quote]
Please spill, and tell us these “so many other ways”. Keep the economic rewards out of the equation as one has nothing but a barely illegible scrawl of an I.O.U.
Don’t mind me. Me and mine were born to take the piss out of sociology. Sorry about that, but it can’t be helped.
We’ve been in more than enough real situation, after which some poncey academic will label it this or that. Oft enough ignorant of other labels already had.
I have no tolerance of a sociology that doth not readily avail itself unto that great realm of thought. Namely Poetry, Philosophy, Scripture, Anthropology, and last but not least Political Theory.

Gustav Le Bon was right.

How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?

Which is why we, out here on the perimetre, always have our picquets well deployed.

80

[quote=“photi”]
This paper goes a bit further and even talks specifically about guilt and shame in Chinese culture: ntur.lib.ntu.edu.tw/bitstream/24 … 4/1/31.pdf
This is another interesting one about Roma culture: pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADM192.pdf[/quote]

Ah-ha!

If guilt is necessarily connected to responsibility, then it is not possible to put other persons into a state of guilt unless they are willing or capable of accepting responsibility. The inability to place persons in a state of guilt without their accepting responsibility makes guilt a suitable basis for a system of morality.

Since shame is not necessarily connected with responsibility, it may be experienced because of events or situations over which one has no control, and thus may be imposed on others. For this reason, it has not been considered an appropriate basis for morality.

Influenced by social Darwinism in the 1900s, Western academic thought has subscribed to the idea of progression in the development of both individuals and cultures from simple to more complex forms. According to Babcock and Sabini (1990), early conceptions of shame by psychoanalysts and anthropologists characterized it as an immature emotion in contrast to the more mature emotion, guilt. This notion was reinforced by the observation that shame developmentally precedes guilt. Guilt was assumed to be the adult emotion of self control, and shame was understood to be a childish regression.

This also clearly explains why Social Media (YouTube) is such an effective way to curb unwanted behaviour in Taiwan (in my opinion). Many people don’t feel guilt over morally wrong actions… but, they will certainly feel the shame if caught on video and featured in the daily news…