The pro-unification posters on this board (BTW where has ac gone?) seem to find it impossible to criticise anything done by the CCP. And it isn’t only the posters on this board. I had a student who I know to be very pro unification (Me: Where were you born? Her: Tainan, China) asking me if I knew about Tiananmen Square whilst we were talking about the idea of ‘revolution’. She then tried to justify it to me. The recent ASL law seems very clumsy even if you are pro unification as it gives ammunition to the TI brigade. But again the posters here don’t seem to be able to show any form of dissent towards the CCP line or policies.
Yet it seems to be perfectly possible to disagree with the CCP but to still desire eventual unification. Indeed shouldn’t that be the basic policy of the KMT? They did after all share such a mutual hatred with the CCP that they faught a civil war against them.
So why do the pro unification posters here find it so impossible to contemplate criticising the CCP and the PRC?
Being able to agree to a topic while disagreeing(politically) with the party advocating the topic would require a bit of mental flexibility and hence not shown by the population at large. There are numerous examples I could site, yet pressed for time to enjoy the weather.
First of all, I don’t see anybody advocating reunification, even if some of us are of the opinion that reunification will eventually happen. The most you can say is that there are those who are against the advocay of TIers specifically and oppose the ideology of TI in general.
And plenty of us disagree with the CCP. There is a lot more to China than dealing with DPP’s circus tricks, believe it or not. This being a Taiwan forum, other topics just don’t come up that often. You seem to be operating on the assumption that if you don’t support TI, then you must support ‘anything done by the CCP.’ Let me write you the logical equivalent of that assumption: if you don’t support just ‘anything done by the CCP,’ then you must support TI. I’ll leave it for you to figure out the implications as this is about the oldest of the TIer fallacies on the net.
And AC has evidently been banned (for what I don’t recall.)
And you would be wrong. The TI brigade does not oprerate this way. Here I will show you my utmost disagreement with the CCP-led PRC on the ASL. The CCP-led PRC is stupid to pass the ASL now. The ASL should have been passed 8 years ago.
Why couple the two issues? I doubt that if Tiananmen hadn’t happened and the CCP wasn’t communist, people would stop advocating for TI. IOW, TI isn’t about how bad the CCP/PRC is, it’s about how Taiwan isn’t China/Chinese.
Ironically, I think that the main obstacle to reunification with China is the CCP. Would most Taiwanese object to reunification if China was a nice place, governed by a democratic government that respected human rights?
Unfortunately, China is anything but a nice place. As long as it’s run by a barbaric bunch of commie butchers, I can hardly blame the Taiwanese for wanting to be independent.
Not being ruled by CCP =/= goal of TI movement.
Goal of TI movement: declare Taiwan to be a de jure independent country.
The status quo is consistent with “not being ruled by CCP.” You exhibit the typical bipolar disorder on this issue.
HA! HA! Go to Tiananmen and say that on a banner.[/quote]
Probably less discomfort in doing that in Tiananmen than in posting here that I’m in favor of 1) increased business and social exchanges between Taiwan and the Mainland without government (either) restrictions, 2) re-unification of Taiwan with the Mainland, and 3) forming my own opinions without being lockstep with the CCP, PFP, KMT, or even MRT. Statements like that, or even close to that, seem to encourage posters who disagree to produce large quantities of thick brown rain which proceeds to engulf the thread very quickly. So I guess I won’t say that sort of thing here.
HA! HA! Go to Tiananmen and say that on a banner.[/quote]
Probably less discomfort in doing that in Tiananmen than in posting here that I’m in favor of 1) increased business and social exchanges between Taiwan and the Mainland without government (either) restrictions, 2) re-unification of Taiwan with the Mainland, and 3) forming my own opinions without being lockstep with the CCP, PFP, KMT, or even MRT. Statements like that, or even close to that, seem to encourage posters who disagree to produce large quantities of thick brown rain which proceeds to engulf the thread very quickly. So I guess I won’t say that sort of thing here.
OOC[/quote]
So saying that sort of thing on this forum gets you criticism.
Criticising the PRC government in China gets you thrown into a re-education camp for three years if you’re lucky, or thirteen or so years if they decide to make an example of you.
And you feel that is LESS discomfort.
If you are so incredibly stupid- and , please , moderators, this is not an insult, just a simple factual description- why don’t you lie down while posters here jump up and down on your kidneys- after that, someone can call you a big poopy-head, and you can decide for yourself which is worse.
[quote=“zeugmite”]Not being ruled by CCP =/= goal of Taiwan independence movement.
Goal of Taiwan independence movement: declare Taiwan to be a de jure independent country.
The status quo is consistent with “not being ruled by CCP.” You exhibit the typical bipolar disorder on this issue.[/quote]
I’m not trying to be anal or anything, but “not equal to” is represented by != or <>
But I agree with your basic statement that among many of the hardcore Taidu people that independence is a goal unto itself, regardless of how good or bad China is. However, I still submit that for the majority of Taiwanese (and for me to, though I’m a foreigner) the big issue is that I don’t want to live in a repressive dictatorship. I don’t give a damn about having a new flag or national anthem, or “call Taiwan Taiwan,” or whatever. I just want to be able to sleep at night knowing that the storm troopers aren’t going to break down the door and haul me away because of something I said in an online discussion forum like this one.
The current status quo is Taiwan Independence. The Taiwan Independence advocates are trying to only institutionalize the current status quo of self rule and total independence from China.
By discussing unification, or being Pro-Unification, one is talking about changing the status quo. They are talking about uniting with Communist China. Now to be fair to these China Nationalists (KMT) they are mostly an ethnic minority in this land and afraid of the Taiwanese majority. They are afraid that maybe one day the official language will be Taiwanese and no one will care about a Chinese heritage. China is the homeland of many KMT and the homeland of the parents of others. How could anyone be talking about Unification when China is still Communist. Advocating unification with Communist China should be considered a treasonous act and someone making visits and agreements with the Chinese Communist Party should definitely be imprisoned.
The scary thing here is that these China Nationalists love China so much, they seem to be closer to, a Communist China than a Taiwanese (DPP) controlled Taiwan. Maybe they are afraid they will be tried for war crimes or treason one day or would have to whisper when they spoke Mandarin with thick Chinese accents instead of talking loudly and proudly like they run this place. These KMT mainlanders seem more like colonizers to me, similar to the proud and loud British colonials in Pre-97 Hong Kong where I use to live in 1994-1995.
So in answer to your question, I think these people aren’t necessarily Pro-CCP, but they will cozy up to those corrupt gangster brothers (CCP) of theirs a lot sooner than they would their neighbors of the past 55 years, the Taiwanese / DPP government.
Too bad Taiwan cannot develop a sense of citizenship and call themselves China born Taiwan citizens, or Chinese Taiwan, ethnically Chinese Taiwan citizens? In Singapore, there are Indian Singaporeans and Malaysian Singaporeans. Taiwan shouldn’t mean Taiwanese or Chinese. It should be a nationality not an ethnicity. This is something that is tragically missing in this country and if it developed it could help unite its people and heal decades of racism.
Uh, yeah. Unfortunately, the CCP has this naughty habit of very much wanting to rule people. That’s exactly the reason that the “status quo,” as defined by you, is not acceptable to the CCP. They have said they won’t tolerate the status quo forever and that unification must take place. Thus, naked Status Quoers are playing with fire (or in this case “non-peaceful means”), not just the naked T.I.ers. The latter are reacting to the CCP’s pressure by finding a way to preserve the democracy and freedoms they enjoy. Unification would not preserve these freedoms; the status quo is unacceptable to the CCP; that leaves formal independence.
I agree with Hobart in the sense that, I’ve been dismayed to see that I can call myself a Bronxite, a New Yorker, a Manhattanite, without being accused of trying to “split America”, the act I’m accused of doing when I say I’m from Taiwan. Its Nationality not Ethnicity so chill out! Since when in modern history are we reverting to the ancient idea that country borders defined by race?
Not to say I believe Taiwan is a part of China, because contrary to local newspapers, Taiwan’s history does not begin at the end of the Chinese occupation, ( or the Japanese, Dutch, and Portuguese occupation either). However the rude jealousy and utter disgust that is spat in my face when I point out such facts is beyond alarming and reeks of a new level of stubbornness, a jealousy beyond moral boundaries, or a shame that no one really likes Chinese rule.
I would be unlikely to be either jealous or disgusted to someone showing such ignorance. More than likely, under the proper circumstances, I would offer to point you toward some good history and analysis books that might give your collection of ‘facts’ a much needed straightening out.
“A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their predjudices.” William James
Uh, yeah. Unfortunately, the CCP has this naughty habit of very much wanting to rule people.[/quote]
CCP is a political party. Personification is pointless and only serves to project your own fantasies onto the situation.
There is no timetable. There never was. “Not forever” is not equal to “soon.” Contrarily, Deng Xiaoping himself has said one can wait, a hundred years is not too long. Exhibit: HK.
No they are not. If status quo is playing with fire, then T.I.ers are playing with nuclear bombs.
There has been no CCP pressure since the 70s. CCP gave up military reunification in favor of peaceful reunification via negotiated settlement. The only thing that has happened since the 70s was the PRC replaced ROC as the government of China in official settings. That people switching diplomatic relationships because of this 30 year old diplomatic arrangement is considered by T.I.ers as “pressure” of imminent direct CCP rule is pure bullshit.
No conditions have been discussed for unification, so stop making shit up. If you are going to make shit up, at least start from the 1C2S proposals to look more credible. The status quo is obviously quite acceptable to the CCP because it has triggered nothing in the Anti-Secession Law. That leaves typical T.I.er propaganda that, if one were to follow in its illogical prescription, might actually start a war.
