I think it becomes ‘nansen’.
I juanshe, but not with the intensity that Beijingers do.
The lack of juanshe in Taiwan leads to misleading hypercorrections that can go uncorrected in learners for years. It was 15 years before I learned that “tunnel” is “suidao” and not “shuidao”. :fume:
I juǎnshé as well, enough to make a distinction, but no one would ever mistake my accent for a northern Chinese one. I’ve also encountered hypercorrection in those that suddenly want to speak “proper” Mandarin when they usually don’t. The most common hypercorrected character I’ve noticed is 四.
Two colleagues in the office are Shanghaiers and they don’t juǎnshé. It doesn’t really matter to me. What trips more people up, for those not familiar with the Taiwanese Mandarin accent, is the substitution of ‘h’ for ‘f’. I attended a church service that had a visiting Taiwanese pastor that Sunday; he personally went up to each parishioner and blessed them. At the end of it all, people asked me what is meant by zùhú, or zù’ú (slurred version of zùhú). It’s 祝福 zhùfú, of course.
[quote=“sjcma”]I juǎnshé as well, enough to make a distinction, but no one would ever mistake my accident for a northern Chinese one. I’ve also encountered hypercorrection in those that suddenly want to speak “proper” Mandarin when they usually don’t. The most common hypercorrected character I’ve noticed is 四.
Two colleagues in the office are Shanghaiers and they don’t juǎnshé. It doesn’t really matter to me. What trip more people up, for those not familiar with the Taiwanese Mandarin accent, is the substitution of ‘h’ for ‘f’. I attended a church service that had a visiting Taiwanese pastor that Sunday; he personally went up to each each parishioner and blessed them. At the end of it all, people asked me what is meant by zùhú, or zù’ú (slurred version of zùhú). It’s 祝福 zhùfú, of course.[/quote]
I once asked my boss what a certain written character was. He said 華. I said, “Which 華?” He said, “缺乏的華”!
I also went to a 小吃 once, and the boss lady asked me “你要不要換?” I thought she was asking me if I wanted to change my order. Of course, she was asking me if I wanted rice.
[quote=“Chris”]I once asked my boss what a certain written character was. He said 華. I said, “Which 華?” He said, “缺乏的華”![/quote] 
I think it becomes ‘nansen’.[/quote]
It sure does. As for Taiwanese, it sounds like a perfect language for grumpy old women. Everyone who uses it always sounds irritated or annoyed. At least it’s better than Canto, which sounds like someone wants to stab you in the face.
There is also substitution of “l” and “r” sounds. “Jīntiān de tiānqì zhème lè!”
Now I understand why they screw up when speaking English - “Do you want some flied lice?”
Taiwanese is the preferred language for working class men. That’s why people swear in it almost exclusively in Taiwan and also why hip hop artists rap in it. That’s also why there is so much class and ethnic prejudice directed against it. It’s a shame that foreigners pick up on this (unconsciously for the most part), but I suppose it’s inevitable.
But complaining about Taiwanese who speak Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent is like complainiing about first generation Mexican-Americans who speak accented English.
Eductated people in Taiwan, regardless of ethnicity, generally distinguish between their ‘s’ and ‘sh’. However, over doing it is a sure sign of being a mainlander over the age of about 50 these days. It just sounds weird to hear foreigners doing it, but since we now get more people who learned their Mandarin in Beijing, I’m getting used to it.
I think it becomes ‘nansen’.[/quote]
It sure does. As for Taiwanese, it sounds like a perfect language for grumpy old women. Everyone who uses it always sounds irritated or annoyed. At least it’s better than Canto, which sounds like someone wants to stab you in the face.[/quote]
I think foreigners pick up on this because in English, ‘s’ and ‘sh’ sounds are distinct, as are ‘en’ and ‘eng’ and ‘l’ and ‘r’. So if a foreign student is not aware that some of these sounds are treated interchangeably in local dialects, they may get frustrated as to which pronunciation to follow.
Correct, but then does that suggest that those who don’t distinguish between those signs are displaying a lack of education? For most people, Taiwanese is spoken at home and Mandarin is only learned in school. So the more “standard” your Mandarin is, the more educated you sound.
Of course there are politics involved too. Speaking Taiwanese or using a Taiwanese accent may emphasize your local ties, whereas speaking “standard” Mandarin may emphasize your ties to China, which people may or may not want to show off.
And grumpy old women complain in it, very loudly, in the adjacent building, and can still be heard in my apartment through two walls. It sounds like they’re chewing gravel. I don’t have any prejudice about it, it just doesn’t sound melodic to me. It’s simply a subjective view. Some languages sound melodic to me, some sound like a brick to the ear. I’m no happier about the Queensland accent in Australia, which sounds like a cross beween a kookaburra and a galah.
Well I certainly don’t complain about Taiwanese who speak Mandarin with a Taiwanese accent. I just note that it makes life that much more difficult for the rest of us, until we sort out what on earth they’re saying. And I think Dragonbone’s American accent is just fine.
Emglish-speaking foreigners who learn Mandarin in Taiwan without rigorous training in Mandarin phonics generally fail to distinguish between the ‘s’ and ‘sh’ sounds and especially the ‘en’ and ‘eng’ sounds when they speak Mandarin. Their ears has simply learned Mandarin without this distinction. Some of these people who speak ‘taiwan guoyu’ do so with very impressive levels of near-native fluency.
You are noticing this only because you were trained to listen for it.
I agree that one should strive to sound like an educated speaker of Mandarin if possible, and most educated people in Taiwan do make these distinction albeit much more softly than is done in norther China.
I don’t have any complaints about the parts of the accent which do not limit an already small syllabary, thus making distinction between words even more difficult. The vowel shift in feng, for instance, doesn’t bother me. Heck, I’ve even adopted it myself. My feng does not rhyme with deng. It’s reasonable for Taiwanese to have a Taiwanese accent in their Mandarin. However, there are varying degrees of that accent, with the more highly educated end of the spectrum preserving (but not exaggerating) retroflex distinctions, and I find this highly preferable to getting called Shu Ken Susu (Uncle Su Ken).
“Si bu si” doesn’t bother me for snobbish reasons. But the collapsing of two categories into one is not exactly an improvement in a language that already has so many homophones as to challenge the ear.
[quote=“Feiren”]
Emglish-speaking foreigners who learn Mandarin in Taiwan without rigorous training in Mandarin phonics generally fail to distinguish between the ‘s’ and ‘sh’ sounds and especially the ‘en’ and ‘eng’ sounds when they speak Mandarin. Their ears has simply learned Mandarin without this distinction. Some of these people who speak ‘taiwan guoyu’ do so with very impressive levels of near-native fluency.
You are noticing this only because you were trained to listen for it. [/quote]
In my case, I was thrown off because the pinyin I was reading didn’t match what I was hearing. I would read that teacher was lǎoshī, but I would hear students pronounce it as lǎosī. I would then ask them “Which is it? Shī or sī?” and receive blank looks in return, because both shī or sī were interchangeable to them.
I suppose it’s the same thing as when we mix up tones and say mài instead of mǎi and they look at us like idiots. “How can you mix up mài and mǎi? They are completely different!!”
I haven’t been to taiwan yet but I have many taiwanese and southern chinese friends who I often chat with outside of class. In the beginning it was a pain but I’ve learned so much from them that i now speak like them and my teacher(beijing) keeps asking who’s teaching me chinese.
Since we’re on the topic of tongue placement, what is j,x,q classified under? I forgot the name but your tongue lays flat opposed to being curled right? That’s how I pronounce them and it’s a lot easier and sounds better than curling my tongue.
I met a young lady (22 ish) and her mother here in Calif. The mom was definitely from the mainland in her accent but her daughter looked like, and dressed like and talked exactly like a Taiwanese girl. She had been hanging out with Taiwanese girls in her college for all 4 years and now had adapted so well you could put her in TAipei and you would never guess shes not Taiwanese from her mannerisms, speech and dress.
Cute she was too !!
They’re called palatals.