Does 水 mean "beautiful"?

Language Taiwanese and Hakka Corner
21

[quote=“sofun”]The kana was created to dissociate from the kanji it originated from. So while it is true that あ stemmed from 安， It is not true, that あ contains 女。
That which contains 女 is 安, which ISN"T あ。 [/quote]

if you are talking about meaning, then yes, あ doesn’t contain the meaning of 女, much like 媠 and 好 doesn’t contain the meaning of 女. 媠 also doesn’t contain the meaning of someone falling off a cliff, not even its original form 隋 or 隨 does anymore. However, if you are purely talking about a glyph containing a the glyph of 女 then ぬ, め and あ obviously contains the 女 glyph in cursive writing, which according to you makes it non-gender-neutral. Cursive writing doesn’t dissociate a Hanji from its meaning.

[quote=“sofun”]
facebook.com/taiwangi.langu … =1&theater[/quote]

the resolution is really bad on facebook, even after downloading the pic.

The sria and じいゃ mapping to 若 doesn’t make sense to me. also don’t see how that represents the sound better than jiá. By the way, your system doesn’t cover tones.

22

hansioux you’ll need to zoom in with your browser. ctrl+ or apple+ with your keyboard. Facebook doesn’t allow for anything larger than what FB likes.

若＝惹＝じいゃ ＝[whichever romanization of your choice]. The same consonant for 壤 and 熱。

See the edited rules in the post No.20. And see below for higher res. pictures.

lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fJzp … 2%2BAM.png
lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rkya … 1%2BPM.png[

23

[quote=“hansioux”]

if you are talking about meaning, then yes, あ doesn’t contain the meaning of 女, [/quote]
NO. I’m not talking about the meaning. I’m talking about the statement that あ=安 is not true. it is a false statement.
The true statement is that あ is from 安, but あ IS NOT 安. You cannot say that just because 安 contains 女, that あ also contains 女.

24

[quote=“hansioux”]I have so far identified 4 groups of such /ts/ -> /t> -> /s/ sound change (Tailo romanization):

隋 sui / 惰 tui / 墮 tsui
隧 sui / 隊 tui / 墜 tsui
壽 siu / 濤 tô / 鑄 tsù
垂 suê, suî / 錘 tûi,thûi / 棰 tshuê, tshê

The last example is also valid in Mandarin (Pinyin romanization):
睡 shui / 垂 cui / 錘 chui / 唾 tuo
[/quote]

This just came to me. I think this phenomenon could explain the tea/cha divide.

The earliest recording of tea in Chinese documents is written as 荼 (tu2 in Mandarin), and somewhere between old chinese and middle chinese, the 茶 (cha2 in Mandarin) became the preferred character for tea.

Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, Persians, Indian, and Spanish all went with the Cha/Chai pronunciation, while Taiwanese Holo, English, Dutch, German, Malay went with the tea pronunciation. The common explanation is that those who loaned the word from Cantonese went with cha, and those who loaned it from Hokkien languages went with tea.

While that is great, it doesn’t explain how the word got two pronunciations in Chinese in the first place.

Classic dictionaries said the pronunciation of tea sounds like:

《集韻》直加切 (ta). However, 直, ti̍t in Taigi is pronounced as zhi2 in Mandarin. The words used to describe 直’s initial consonant is 除, which is tû in Taigi and chu2 in Mandarin.

In Japanese Kan’on corresponds more closely to Tang dynasty official language, and 茶 is Da in Kan’on. In Tōon, which corresponds closely to Song and Ming dynasty official languages, 茶 is Sa. In Goon, which corresponds closely to the Southern dynasties before Tang dynasty, 茶 is Ja.

If Japanese recorded the trend faithfully, it supports the /ts/ -> /t/ -> /s/ hypothesis.

25

hansioux, care to do a bit of data mining?

wpedia.goo.ne.jp/enwiki/User:Eirikr/sandbox

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[quote=“yuli”]hansioux, care to do a bit of data mining?

wpedia.goo.ne.jp/enwiki/User:Eirikr/sandbox[/quote]

from the list of numbers, I think the both 七 and 十 column probably is a good match for the same phenomenon, especially when taking Vietnamese into consideration.

the same goes for 石

27

“Faithfully” is an iffy matter in language, but since you are on to something, i’d start looking for counter-evidence, to strengthen (or weaken, as the case may be) your hypothesis. :wink:

28

“Faithfully” is an iffy matter in language, but since you are on to something, I’d start looking for counter-evidence, to strengthen (or weaken, as the case may be) your hypothesis. :wink:[/quote]

another example would be 智 and 知 (tì, ti, tsai in Taigi, /ʈʂɨ/ in Mandarin).

知 is described in Traditional dictionaries to sound like:

《唐韻》陟离切《集韻》(ti in Taigi)
陟 (tik in Taigi)
《集韻》的則切，音得。 (same as 得, tik, tit in Taigi)
《廣韻》《集韻》《韻會》竹力切，音稙 (same as 稙, si̍t, si̍k in Taigi).

《韻會》珍離切《正韻》珍而切 (ti in Taigi)
珍 (tin, tinn, tsin in Taigi)

From the 陟 sample, we see the entire /ts/ → /t/ → /s/ combo.

29

get ready for more /ts/ -> /t/ -> /s/ examples:

上 Taigi: siāng, siōng, tsiūnn and tshiūnn

上 Japanese:
goon: jō
kanon: shō

Missing the /t/?

上 Vietnamese: thượng

圵 Mandarin: dang4

There are more examples, but most characters won’t show up on forumosa…

wait, there’s more…

上：《廣韻》《集韻》《韻會》《正韻》時亮切 (siāng, siōng), sound like 尙 (siāng, siōng, siūnn).

尚 has several frequently used /t/ example: 倘 (thóng, tsián in Taigi. tang3 in Mandarin) and 躺 (thóng in Taigi. tang3 in Mandarin)

上：《唐韻》時掌切 (sánn, sióng, siáng, siúnn, siónn, síng)
《集韻》《韻會》《正韻》是掌切 (sánn, sióng, siáng, siúnn, siónn, síng, tsánn, tsióng, tsiáng, tsiúnn, tsiónn, tsíng)

是 has a frequently used /t/ exampe: 提 (the̍h), actually, almost every character with 是 as a part of it reads as (ti2 in Mandarin)

which brings us to 匙, ever wondered why it is 湯匙 (chi2), but 鑰匙 (shi3)? well I do…

to sum up:

上 (siāng) / 仩 (tshong) / 圵 (tong)
尚 (siāng) /敞 (tshàng) / 倘 (thóng)
是 (sī) / 匙 (chi2 in Mandarin) / 提 (the̍h)

辰 and 時 are also candidates.

By the way, if 是 as affirmative had a /t/ initial consonant, it would be in line with 著 (tio̍h), 對 (tuì) and the Korean affirmative 대 (dae, Hanja 對)

30

寺 (sī) / 持 (tshî) / 特 (ti̍k)

峙 (sī) / 峙 (tshāi) / 峙 (tī) ← single character for all 3 sounds.

辰 (sîn) / 振 (tsín, tín) / 震 (tín)

31

observation:

there’s a rule in Japanese phonology: /t/ -> /ts/

/t/ > dental affricate [ts]: /tuɡi/ > [tsɯᵝŋi] tsugi 次 ‘next’

for example, when transcribing the English word “two”, Japanese say ツ /tsu/

If that’s the rule behind this, then it would suggest the order of sound shift being:

/t/ -> /ts/ -> /s/

That would be consistent with most of the characters with multiple pronunciations in Taigi having /t/ for colloquial pronunciation and /ts/ or /s/ for literally pronunciation. 震 for example is tín in colloquial, and tsín in literary.

Also consistent with Japanese, as the example from 茶, where Kan’on and Goon are /ta/ and /tsa/, and the later Toon is /sa/.

The Japanese rule requires the vowel /u/ to affect the initial consonant. In Sinitic languages it, this group of sound changes would appear to be associated with /u/, /i/, /ɨ/, /ʉ/, /a/ and /ia/. Which ones came first remains to be seen.

Similar sound change can be found in Indo-European languages:

PIE *dyéwm 'sky (accusative singular) ’ > *dyḗm > Sanskrit dyā́m, acc. sg. of dyaús, Latin diem (which served as the basis for Latin dies ‘day’), Greek Zen (reformed after Homeric Greek to Zena), acc. of Zeus

We get a /d/ -> /d͡z/ -> /z/ sound change.

32

found more examples over the past weekend, including an English one.

/t/ -> /ts/ (in this case /tʃ/)
Statue /ˈstæ.tʃuː/ , which in its original Latin form was statua /ˈsta.tu.a/

other examples in English, some would pronounce Tuesday as choose-day…

This transition is also followed by /u/, same as the phenomenon in Japanese. As previously mentioned in Sinitic languages this phenomenon seems to be associated with /u/, /i/, /ɨ/, /ʉ/, /a/ and /ia/.