Stray Dog is pretty much correct on the benefits of a raw food diet for dogs. But if you haven
Holy crap!
I had no idea.
And I though I was being a responsible Daddy giving him Science Diet.
[quote=“Lo Bo To”]Holy crap!
I had no idea.
And I though I was being a responsible Daddy giving him Science Diet.[/quote]
YOU’RE KILLING YOUR DOG YOU CRUEL BASTARD YOU!!!
Just kidding. I’ve been giving my dog pedegree since she was young. Recently I’m using that Eukabana (sp?) stuff. And I have a bag of cheap stuff for the strays.
edit: I was just reading one of your links Straydog and she mentions that butchers throw away chicken necks, feet…etc. And that you can get them for next to nothing…but that’s not Asia.
I’d like to switch to a more healthy diet for her…I’ve read recommendations like Stray Dog’s before. But I don’t cook…ever. You tell me something I can buy bulk and feed them…and I will. If I’ve never bothered to cook for myself…or my girlfriend…I don’t think I’m going to start just for my dog…as selfish as that might sound.
Here’s my question. If the Science Diet stuff is not that good, is the local stuff that much worse? The price vary a lot so I’m wondering if the cheap stuff is worth buying instead of the more expensive brands.
I’ve read good things about feeding raw as well. I once trained a deaf pooch using a method that recommended raw meat and it worked really well.
bobepine
I changed my dogs to the raw meaty bones diet about 7 -8 months ago.
It has made such a difference to them.
they all had ear infections that i just couldn’t get rid of, but after a month of thier diet being changed, thier ears cleared up.
Also thier teeth have become whiter.
They are much more active, one of my dogs is 12 years old and climbs 5 flights of stairs with ease.
their fur, skin and everything else just looks healthier.
I can’t believe i was feeding them such crap for so long. 
Well better late than never. 
But you do eat, right? Why not grab an extra plate of assorted meat and veg at the buffet or an extra bag of beef noodles from the vendor – bar burgers and pizza and curry, pretty much anything that keeps you going is alright for the dog! Don’t tell Stray Dog but I even give mine the skin and bones from a bucket of Napoli chicken – I know you shouldn’t give dogs cooked bones but I can’t bring myself to chuck it all out! 
Regarding local kibble versus “holistic” I can’t imagine there’s a vast difference in nutritional value – the local stuff probably has more chemicals and ground up dead pets, mind!
My boys eat loads of chicken necks, and sometimes the heads, too. They eat them raw and cooked (lightly) depending on how much time I have.
As Magnolia states above, you can get the really cheap chicken hearts, cartilege, gizzards and even pork loins at Wellcome… I cook the pork, lightly.
I think its actually much cheaper than commercial dog food, and you don’t need to worry about that dry food sitting around in a bag.
Anyway… just think if you had to live on Cheerios… every freaking day… how could anyone do that to their doggie?
And Mordeth, you can go to any local market in Taiwan and pick up a carrier bag full of chicken carcasses (bones, cartilage, skin, the lot) for a negligible amount – NT100 max. Portion it up and freeze it. Make friends with the man on the butcher’s stall and buy a couple of steaks once or twice a month and he’ll probably give you his chicken off-cuts for free! Big shout to the guy in the market on Chung-cheng Road on Chung Ho (just down from Watson’s)! 
The cheap stuff is garbage. Look at the ingredients and you’ll probably see meat (by-products or meal, most likely) way down on the list of ingredients, when it should be the most predominant ingredient by far.
Also, the foods that are thrown in will be of very poor quality.
What you save in the cost of the food you will pay in additional trips to the vet. The cheapest dog food you can get here is extremely cheap; we calculated we can feed 15 dogs for about NT$60 per day total, not each, feeding the cheap kibble. By comparison, by getting the offcuts of meat from a wholesale supplier or market vendor as Magnolia suggests we can feed the same number of dogs for NT$75 per day. That’s 25 percent extra, but only NT$1 extra per day per dog. Considering the vast difference in health benefits to the animal and the reduced veterinary costs, the raw meaty bones comes out a clear winner. The needed supplementation can be given for a few NT$ per day, or more if you really want to ensure good health.
Even if you buy your meaty bones from Wellcome, it would cost you on average about NT$25 per day if you feed mostly chicken backs (a fantastic food item for dogs, and only NT$13 per day for a medium-sized dog) and whatever else is going cheap that day, including fish once a week and steak or lamb every two to four weeks. An egg a day is great for a dog: organic and free range, about NT$5 per day per dog.
With proper supplementation, it should cost from NT$35 to no more than NT$50 per day per dog if buying meat from the supermarket, or about NT$8 to NT$25 per day, depending on the extent of supplementation, if using wholesale meat or offcuts.
My dogs never have to get their teeth cleaned, never smell bad (unless wet in the rain), don’t drink so much water, poop smaller and drier, have fewer ear infections, have no skin problems, and are generally very healthy and happy. They all have great physiques with very little visible fat.
My dogs rock! 
Thanks Sean,
Back home, my vet always told us that bones are dangerous for dogs. They can get stuck and cause choking or digestive and intestinal injuries. What’s your opinion about that? I’m thinking it’s maybe a way to sell more dog food while avoiding rare chances of complications.
My French plays tricks on me here. I read things like “chicken backs”, “raw meaty bones diet”, and “chicken carcases.” Does this mean that you feed your dog chicken bones? In my mind, a chicken back is the rib cage. That’s a lot of small sharp bones. About feeding an egg, do you feed it raw too?
I need a clarification here, then I need to find out where to get good deals on this kind of food in Kaohsiung. Lucky still has some minor skin issues and I think “real” food could certainly help.
This is an excellent thread btw, very informative, nice to find out what others feed their furry friends. :bravo:
[quote]Holy crap!
I had no idea.
And I though I was being a responsible Daddy giving him Science Diet.[/quote]You are not the only one. Lucky is also fed Science Diet. I thought I was doing the right thing too. :s
Cheers!
bobepine
Cooked bones are dangerous as they splinter and are difficult to break down; raw bones, on the other hand, are softer and more pliable and break down very easily.
Remember, we’ve only had dog food since the 1940s. Before that, all dogs were fed table scraps and raw bones from the butcher … and they thrived.
One of our vets gets about one dog a month with a bone causing problems internally, and always the bones are cooked.
have to go …more later
Really educational discussion. I’m inclined to sticky it, but with so many stickies already, I fear the first page of this forum would become unviewable if I added anymore.
Funnily enough, I got an e-mail today from a vet technician coming here to teach English who wants to volunteer for AT, which is fantastic.
She is also a spokesperson for Hills Pet Nutrition. I hope to learn a lot from her during her stay, and I will of course encourage her to join in the debate here, as it is only fair.
Should be interesting!
Really going now …
Sean
[quote=“Stray Dog”]
The cheap stuff is garbage. Look at the ingredients and you’ll probably see meat (by-products or meal, most likely) way down on the list of ingredients, when it should be the most predominant ingredient by far.
Also, the foods that are thrown in will be of very poor quality.
What you save in the cost of the food you will pay in additional trips to the vet. The cheapest dog food you can get here is extremely cheap; we calculated we can feed 15 dogs for about NT$60 per day total, not each, feeding the cheap kibble. By comparison, by getting the offcuts of meat from a wholesale supplier or market vendor as Magnolia suggests we can feed the same number of dogs for NT$75 per day. That’s 25 percent extra, but only NT$1 extra per day per dog. Considering the vast difference in health benefits to the animal and the reduced veterinary costs, the raw meaty bones comes out a clear winner. The needed supplementation can be given for a few NT$ per day, or more if you really want to ensure good health.
Even if you buy your meaty bones from Wellcome, it would cost you on average about NT$25 per day if you feed mostly chicken backs (a fantastic food item for dogs, and only NT$13 per day for a medium-sized dog) and whatever else is going cheap that day, including fish once a week and steak or lamb every two to four weeks. An egg a day is great for a dog: organic and free range, about NT$5 per day per dog.
With proper supplementation, it should cost from NT$35 to no more than NT$50 per day per dog if buying meat from the supermarket, or about NT$8 to NT$25 per day, depending on the extent of supplementation, if using wholesale meat or offcuts.
My dogs never have to get their teeth cleaned, never smell bad (unless wet in the rain), don’t drink so much water, poop smaller and drier, have fewer ear infections, have no skin problems, and are generally very healthy and happy. They all have great physiques with very little visible fat.
My dogs rock! [/quote]
This post is the most helpful to me. I’d love to improve my dogs diet. But for example another poster metioned buying whole chickens and portioning it out…I could probably count on one hand how many times I’ve cut up a chicken in my life. I have an aversion to anything work related when it comes to food. I won’t eat anything with bones in it…Why? Because it’s too much hassel having to eat around something. No…I’m not kidding…I really am that lazy.
But buying raw bones…and just dumping them in their dog dish…that is something I could do. Any other EASY tips for buying healthy dog food?
Buy the precut pieces, such as wings, legs, backs etc. Add a raw egg. Give whole fish, or if big, just cut in half (no fish with red inside or out). Buy some powdered alfalfa or kelp to sprinkle on top. Give fish oil and vit E capsules. That’s it.
With the meat, give variety over time: chicken for six days, then fish for a couple, then chicken again, then duck, then chicken, then pork ribs, then chicken, then lamb cutlets (expensive, so once a month), then chicken, then rabbit.
If you forget to buy them food, call it a fasting day (very good for the dog - helps them eliminate toxins).
Give cooked/leftover veggies, though it’s better if they’re blended.
It really is simple. Our grandparents did it. So did their grandparents.
Go for it!
Sean
Apologies for side-tracking here 
, but I would presume that this would also be true for cats … ?
If so, what would be a recommended and easily accessible diet for them?
Thanks!
teggs
Even easier: raw meaty bones all the way.
I’ll check my book for any supplements that may help, and I’m sure fish oil and vit E are two of them (actually may be necessary).
My cat is a tiger now. 
On the note of table scrap/people’s food, here’s 4 things that can be toxic for dogs.
-onions, chocolate, grapes, raisins
Anything else?
I fed raw beef trimmings and left over cooked carrots to lucky tonight. He had no complaints but I think he likes the beef better if it’s cooked.
Another tip is never feed a dog out of your plate while you are eating. Wait until the table is cleared and when everyone is finished eating then put the left overs in the dog’s food dish. Otherwise the dog will beg and salivate everytime you eat.
bobepine
Would you feed a dog the same amount of food if giving raw meat rather than dog food. For instance our dog is ~12Kg, how many chicken wings, legs or breast would you feed per day ?
Would you feed a dog the same amount of food if giving raw meat rather than dog food. For instance our dog is ~12Kg, how many chicken wings, legs or breast would you feed per day ?[/quote]
I can’t remember if it’s roughly three times the volume or three times the weight, but either way, you should aim for 2 to 3 percent of ideal body weight per day, and monitor the dogs weight to fine tune, as some need more, some need less. Aim for maybe 5 percent if the dog is small (under 5 kg).
To assess whether the dog is at the right weight, look at and feel the ribs. If you can see them, he or she is underweight; if you can’t feel them easily, he or she is overweight.
For a dog that is 12 kg, I would feed 2.5 percent to start - 300 grams of meaty bones per day (bone to meat ratio = 50:50 - wings are perfect). Chicken backs weigh between 220 and 310 grams, sometimes more; chicken wings (to the shoulder) weigh about 160 grams; ‘buffalo’ wings, about 30 grams; chicken legs, 150 grams or 220 to 250 with the feet still attached.
Guestimate - the beauty of this diet is balance over time.
Give probiotics (live, natural, unsweetened yoghurt) when you make the switch to help him or her cope with the new bacteria (also good for diarrhea or when the dog is taking antibiotics).
(Got yout PM, Connel, and will reply the next day or so - much appreciate the info and will make use of it. 
)