Dolphin Friendly?

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
21

Not that I support the dolphin killing in any way but what has the level of intelligence (in whatever way you define or measure this?) to do with the decision to eat or not to eat the meat of those animals?[/quote]

Given the “race and IQ” thread, perhaps this could be the beginning of a “species and IQ” thread. I’m sure that many a pig and cow out there would say the only reason dolphins do so well on IQ tests is because those tests are speciest. Cold Front, what does the Bell Curve have to say about dolphins?

22

Excuse the long post but on the subject of what ifs . . .

Cows With Guns

Fat and docile, big and dumb
They look so stupid, they aren’t much fun
Cows aren’t fun

They eat to grow, grow to die
Die to be et at the hamburger fry
Cows well done

Nobody thunk it, nobody knew
No one imagined the great cow guru
Cows are one

He hid in the forest, read books with great zeal
He loved Che Guevera, a revolutionary veal
Cow Tse Tongue

He spoke about justice, but nobody stirred
He felt like an outcast, alone in the herd
Cow doldrums

He mooed we must fight, escape or we’ll die
Cows gathered around, cause the steaks were so high

Bad cow pun

But then he was captured, stuffed into a crate
Loaded onto a truck, where he rode to his fate
Cows are bummed

He was a scrawny calf, who looked rather woozy
No one suspected he was packing an Uzi
Cows with guns

They came with a needle to stick in his thigh
He kicked for the groin, he pissed in their eye
Cow well hung

Knocked over a tractor and ran for the door
Six gallons of gas flowed out on the floor
Run cows run!

He picked up a bullhorn and jumped up on the hay
We are free roving bovines, we run free today

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

They crashed the gate in a great stampede
Tipped over a milk truck, torched all the feed
Cows have fun

Sixty police cars were piled in a heap
Covered in cow pies, covered up deep
Much cow dung

Black smoke rising, darkening the day
Twelve burning McDonalds, have it your way

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die
Cows with guns

The President said “enough is enough
These uppity cattle, its time to get tough”
Cow dung flung

The newspapers gloated, folks sighed with relief
Tomorrow at noon, they would all be ground beef
Cows on buns

The cows were surrounded, they waited and prayed
They mooed their last moos,
they chewed their last hay
Cows outgunned

The order was given to turn cows to whoppers

Enforced by the might of ten thousand coppers
But on the horizon surrounding the shoppers
Came the deafening roar of chickens in choppers

We will fight for bovine freedom
And hold our large heads high
We will run free with the Buffalo, or die

Cows with guns

23

Actually there are lot’s of claims that scientific studies have shown pigs are smarter than dogs, so perhaps we should all change our eating habbits.

Couldn’t find any such report though to confirm it … :unamused:

24

I read that as “we should all change to eating hobbits,” but then I guess you’d have Legolas and all those guys shooting arrows at you and stuff.

25

Huh?

Pigs are clearly smarter than dogs. But pigs don’t go out of their way to live with and work with humans.

26

Tigerman: All we are saying, is give pigs a chance.

27

I don’t usually preach my vegetarianism, but here’s what I think.

On a logical level there’s nothing worse about eating dolphins than eating cows or chickens. On the level of feelings I feel worse about dolphins (or even cats) being killed than I do about pigs, and sheep etc. I feel even worse about people being killed. I htink this is a sort of empathy or selfishness based on species that we feel closer to somehow, because they are ‘friends of people’, smarter, cuter or whatever. For about a year before I became vegetarian I believed that my eating meat had no real justification, but was a selfish thing that I did because I liked it.

The thing that actually made me vegetarian has been touched on here, eg when Tigerman asked if this slaughter of dolphins is necessary. I just realised that I don’t have to eat meat, and in fact, it’s easy not to. If I had to eat meatto survive I’d take it up again pretty quickly.

Getting back to the thing about different species being smarter or more useful to people, and there for more deserving of protection, I agree with Peter Singer, author of ‘Animal Liberation’. Arguing from a standpoint of philosophy and ethics he focuses on the ability to suffer. I am essentially vegetarian, out of a desire not to inflict suffering on animals.

As I said at the start, I hope I don’t sound to preachy, but that’s definitely what this thread is about, so i just wanted to offer my perspective.

Brian

28

If intelligence isn’t a factor in the decision, what’s wrong with cannibalism?

29

Do you just mean eating human meat, or killing humans for meat?

Firstly there’s the health issue. It’s not good for any species to eat their own. You get horrible diseases like that one (Scrapie or something) that killed of 40% or something (I just plucked that figure out of the air) of the Papua New Guineans at one stage when they were eating human flesh at funerals.

The health issue aside, I think that on one level there’s nothing worse about eating human flesh than about eating animal flesh. On the other hand, when it comes down to feelings, I’d much rather eat animals than humans, because I feel closer to my fellow humans. It’s like most of us if we had a chance to rush onto a burning building would probably rescue our own relatives first.

There’s other reasons, like we have to be a functioning part of a functioning human society and the fact that killing humans to eat would cause more suffering than killing animals to eat.

Brian[/quote]

30

Bu,

I meant killing them to eat them… no road kill!

Incidentally, I normally don’t agree with you, but you’re the only one on this topic that I think is consistent… but I still like to eat pork and beef and stuff… but not dog or dolphin (or humans).

31

Funny that eating dolphins is largely considered a no-no, but most people will happily munch on fish - even a good many people who don’t eat ‘meat’. Fish really have a hard time of it, and if the arguments above are worth anything then maybe you should read this article:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 189941.stm

I won’t even get started on the topic of overfishing, but what about the ‘collateral damage’ done to other marine life? Drift nets kill (amongst others) dolphins, long lines still kill sharks and albatrosses. Who cares about them?

Strict vegan vegetarianism is probably the only ethically consistent approach to take, but I don’t have the willpower. And I talk to my plants.

When is a tomato dead, anyway?

32

I often hear the argument (about me beign a vegetarian) that if I wanted to be ‘consistent’, I should not eat candy that might contain gelatin (made form pig’s hooves or something), cheese with rennet (maybe that was the pig’s hooves), cake that has non-free range egss, wear leather belts etc. As if, not being a pure vegan, I may as well be a full meat-eater for all the good my vegetarianism does.

But if, like me, you’re vegetarian to alleviate the suffering of animals, then that’s bullshit. You can’t draw a clear line, witht he good on one side and the bad on the other. What’s important is that you draw a line, however murky it is. Even something like only eating meat every second day alleviates the suffering of animals. It’s all good.

Brian

33

People have an irrational faith in the effectiveness of logic and empirical data in resolving moral disputes. You can argue this point

34

Nice post Vay. One comment… who’s to say those dolphins are the “wild” mammals in this particular incident?

35

Strag, overfishing is a real problem; for a while, I tried to stick with farm-raised fish, but then there are problems with antibiotic abuse and accidental releases of farmed species into nonnative areas (Vancouver has lots of pens for Atlantic salmon in Pacific waters, and keep accidentally releasing the fish – possibly damaging the wild Pacific populations).

IMHO raising animals – cows, pigs, chickens, ostriches, whatever – for slaughter is a lot better, environmentally speaking, than devastating the wild fish stocks or farming fish in too-small tanks. And while some meat processors (COUGHTysonCOUGH) are both environmentally abusive (dumping offal into the waterways AND dumping antibiotics into feed), at least this is something that can be discovered and discussed – menwhile, there are good operations like Foster Farms that don’t do either.

36

I would rather say humans do not treat pigs as pets, i.e. they don’t allow them into their life as they allow a dog (or cat) for example.
Dogs have been domesticated over thousands of years because humans saw another use than getting their meat while the (house) pigs main purpose it to be a supplier of meat and not to fetch your newspaper or sniff your crotch.

As you said, it’s a factor (of many) only. Besides, we were talking about eating animals and not humans, so I would rather see you answering why intelligence would matter.
And if it does, why don’t you prefer to eat dog rather than pig since pigs are more intelligent.
What other factors do dogs have that make you not (want to) eat them?

Well, put me on the list, too. I eat anything I like to eat - that’s consistent, isn’t it?
Rabbits are cute but I eat them. I would also try dog and cat and whatever but not if they are my pets. That however doesn’t mean I will like and continue to eat them (maybe, maybe not).
I tried e.g. ostrich and frog before, yet I don’t long for that meat. In fact I don’t long for pork or beef either, but it’s what I am used to and what is common, easily available.
So if in other cultures this applies to e.g. dogs then I see no reason to tell them not to eat dogs.

37

As someone who hasn’t knowingly consumed a morsel of meat in more than a quarter of a century, and who would rather stem hunger with grass and dirt than do so, I wholeheartedly concur with Bu Lai En and Vay on this topic.

38

How do Jews feel about us eating pork ? They don’t eat pigs because they think they are too similar to humans.

39

BFM, that’s one of the silliest things I’ve ever seen written about the kosher laws. :slight_smile:

Jews don’t eat pork because the pig is an “unclean” animal. You will please note that they also don’t eat shellfish; is this because lobsters are too similar to humans?? :stuck_out_tongue:

The best explanation I’ve seen for the kosher laws is that the animals in question were more likely to pass on diseases way back then, and so the kosher laws were intended to protect the Jews from illness.

Me, I skip uncooked oysters and am quite glad of it. :frowning: Those damn filter feeders can spread just about any disease that people flush down their sewer pipes. . . .

40

Anatomically the pig’s guts are the closest of any animal species to the human body’s. That is why for centuries medical students opened up and studied pigs and drew up medical books based upon their dissections of pigs, because using dead human bodies for such purposes was taboo. Not until Valen, the pioneer of modern anatomy, published his book based on the dissections of human corpses did doctors stop using pigs as the basis for their ideas about surgery. Those who have seen The Gangs of New York may remember the scene in which they train knife-cutting on pig corpses for this reason.