Don't be overzealous (Family Mart shoplifting case)


#87

What? I’ve read everything from beginning but didn’t get how story ended. He won a case? Did she had to pay all expenses?


#88

Don’t get excited, people. I unlocked the thread because I thought everyone would have calmed down by now. Within hours, a new personal attack appeared (now removed). If this continues I’ll send you all to your rooms with no dessert. :rage:


#89

A post was split to a new topic: more overzealousness


#90

This kinda story from OP scares me. Because I’ve seen it a couple times concerning people accidentally walking out of stores with small items and getting prosecuted. I’m ADD, so I forget to pay every now and then. Luckily I’ve never had a vindictive bitch, like OP’s store-owner, accuse me of shoplifting. Most give the benefit of the doubt, run out and remind me to pay, and we have a good laugh about it. Sometimes it goes the other way, and I’m so in my own world that I try to pay twice.


#91

Yeah, I walked away from a breakfast place I was eating at four or five times a week, just because I’d gotten into an interesting discussion with an old guy eating there. Would have sucked big time if they’d wanted to prosecute instead of just calling out to me as I walked away.


#92

Anyone can have a slip of the mind and forget to do something. When you forget your keys, wallet, purse, umbrella, or whatever, that is called absent minded. When you forget to pay, that is called stealing. It does not matter what your intentions were, if you have ADD, OCD, ABC or 123…you don’t pay, you are stealing. How is a store owner supposed to diagnose your inability to remember things? That is just ludicrous.

Compassion, understanding and forgiveness go a long way. For a simple slip up once, like you walk away from eating at a breakfast shop and forget to pay, but you are a regular, then an owner shrugging it off is fine…even good business because you will remember their kindness.

My wife forgets her wallet sometimes. When she gets to a coffee shop where she is a regular and orders her drink, but then realizes she doesn’t have any money, they have stepped up and allowed her to run a tab. That is good business.

However, forgetfulness does not automatically excuse theft nor should anyone expect automatic belief that you forgot. Attitude, being humble and apologizing goes a long way.


#93

So in other words you agree that people who mistakenly walk out with candy that costs 60 NTD should be made an example of and prosecuted? Okay…


#94

I have to agree with SuiGeneris. It is technically still stealing when you walk out without paying. Now, if you found yourself in a situation where you’re being called to a police station being accused of stealing, wouldn’t you rather just pay the 4k and make the whole thing go away instead of taking it to court?

Btw, it doesn’t matter if it’s just 60ntd or 2000ntd. In many stores, there are signs that shoplifters will be reported to the police and a fine is to be payed for first timers, in my home country it’s about 5000ntd minimum. Same for fare-dodging. When you get caught, it doesn’t matter if you were just taking one station or riding halfway through the country.


#95

You legal eagles don’t have a clue about logic, or the legal system. An act does not constitute an alleged crime.

If y’all had a nuanced understanding of Taiwanese law as it is written, you would know that the prosecutor has to first prove a motive and intent. If a clear motive, intent and benefit are not established, then the case cannot be considered a criminal matter as the law and accompanying statues read in Chinese.

Furthermore, you would know that medical disabilities are a cheap legal maneuver, but still very effective and gives the prosecution very little wiggle room in deciding to f*** over a mentally disabled person.

The prosecutor also has the option of dropping pitiful cases like this that aren’t for the public benefit and waste taxpayer dollars. Already they’ve dropped big dough on psych evals (at their cost) and done interviews.

There’s a lot of graft and patronage in the judicial/law enforcement system that regular Taiwanese are sick and tired of. Frankly, where I come from, if you’re not going to accept a generous settlement and an apology, I’m going to dig my heels in and fight


#96

I hear ya. I did that too a few years ago, was in a market and ordered dumplings from one restaurant that was pay after, and told the owner that I would sit with my friends next to his store as they ordered from a different vendor that was pay before.

They got up to leave and so did i, since they had already paid. I completely forgot.

Went back the next day to pay and apologize and the owner said he was surprised I came back and that he figured I simply forgot and had let it go.
Guess I’m lucky too he didn’t call the fuzz.


#97

You don’t need to be clueless about logic to be clueless about law. The ones who want you to lose the appeal are simply thinking “take + not pay = crime”, perfectly logical. Whether the law agrees is another question.

Any progress in your case?


#98

That is stretching what I said.
I said stealing is stealing, no matter 1nt or a million nt.
However, compassion, understanding, forgiveness is good for return business in cases of obvious slip ups…like the OP.

But, it is in the victim’s legal right to press charges. Just as it is the offenders right to offer an apology, pay back what was stolen and hope for forgiveness. If the law says you have to pay a fine, then pay a fine and be done with it. The OP was in the wrong, own your mistakes, face the consequences of your actions, set things right and move on with life.

You walk in to a shop, you take something and leave without paying. This is stealing. Logic says taking something that is not yours without paying is stealing. If the powers that be decide you should be tried for your crimes, then you face that for what you did. If the legal system determines you did indeed steal, then logic says you are then a criminal and face the consequence of said crime.

It is quite clear. Stop trying to make the store owner sound evil. The store owner had every right to press charges. Sucks to be you, sure, but you were at fault and you were the one that dragged it out instead of paying the fine and being done with it.

This idea that, “well it was my first time, I should be forgiven” or “oops, sorry” and then expect to be let off the hook without any consequence is ridiculous. Nothing is owed to you in this life. It is up to each of us to take responsibility for our choices and actions.


#99

Yes, well, we’ll see. :idunno:


#100

#winning

Guys, this isn’t a question of innocence or guilt. I’m giving the Taiwanese justice system a run for their money.

If they really want that NT5000 fine, they’re gonna have to work for it. NT15000 doctors eval. lots of paper shuffling. Assemblings briefs, motions and evidence. and setting hearing dates.

This is more entertaining than you guys can imagine since this won’t show up on a standard police certificate of conduct.


#101

You have a lot of free time…fight on good sir


#102

Yeah. I think abuse of the system and pursuing prosecution for an accidentally pocketed candybar is disgusting, but I’d still just swallow my pride and pay the initial fine. The House always wins in Vegas, and the system always wins when you’re an ex-pat in trouble in a foreign country.


#103

The 5,000 fine is for breaking the law.
You break the law, you pay the fine.
It does not matter if it was candy or a TV…
You. Broke. The. Law.

There is no “injustice” here.
There is just a pissed off shop owner and a stubborn thief.
Either one could have yielded.
The owner could have accepted an apology and payment of the stolen goods or the thief could have paid the $5,000 fine.
It is the legal right to prosecute because you did not yield and pay the fine.
What point are you trying to make?
That stealing candy is ok?
That people who are forgetful should be immune from the law?

Consider yourself lucky. In some countries they chop off a thief’s hand for stealing.


#104

In some countries, you get stoned to death for cheating on your spouse (but only if you’re a woman, of course). What’s your point? That he should feel lucky that while vindictive, at least they’re not as extreme and cruel as the worst systems of law in the world?

And anyone who claims they’ve never accidentally walked out of a place without paying at least once in their life is a liar. Motive and intent should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to pursue something trivial like this legally or criminally.


#105

its not as black and white as that though is it. should we also prosecute people at the checkout who do not give us our correct change as thieves? not to mention this is the service industry, you get by on giving good service, not by running scams on people who make honest mistakes (60ntd) this woman is playing the system, wasting a lot of peoples time and offering bad service, she sounds like a miserable human and i hope she gets some karma one of these days.


#106

I’m feeling like someone broke a record, and not in the good sense. :wall:

Reminder!

The purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement one way or another. If you really want to play lawyer or judge, cite precedents that are relevant to this case. We’ve heard the basic argument in layman’s terms for a hundred posts now. There’s no point in repeating it.

Have a nice day, everyone! :rainbow: