Hey, I’ll only start taking people down a few notches when they go on about how they “can’t afford to make spelling, grammar, or style mistakes”. Then anything they say is fair game for scrutiny. 
Guys, quit picking apart. I do not want to pick anybody’s brain, but…
you know it’s only well-advised to pick your words when you deal with cross-cultural things. It’s so easy to pick a quarrel with those who might - oops - occasionally make a slip where you feel you’re safe. Don’t.
When a student myself, I had a professor from the USA who used to consult an English dictionary now and then as he was going through our essays in class. Couldn’t he just say wrong from right? But - what’s more - it was he who was the author of that very dictionary! He would read up a sentence from the student’s work, lift his head, grin at you and say: “Let’s see what’s in there on that.” And guess what - I never doubted his professionalism. No person can know everything, it’s obvious, even if it’s your own language. Pick and choose - yes. Pick holes - nope.
You don’t always have a dictionary big enough with you, do you?
The goal of learning English for most is to be able to communicate in English. Speaking and writing like a native-speaker isn’t always the goal… and not always a realistic goal either. And for many students, they’ll most likely be using English with others for whom English is not a native tongue (e.g. Taiwanese businessman speaking with Korean businessman). Even if the person makes some mistakes or uses some phrases inappropriately, as long as they have ability to clarify themselves, they have the ability to communicate. Some students may pick up “bad habits” from some teachers, but if they are really motivated, they will discover the “proper” use on their own.
And Sputnik, the more you argue, the more the gaps in your language ability show… and that’s what folks will notice, not the content, since you are basically arguing that you are just as qualified to teach English as a native-speaking teacher.
Anyway, your point was that you had a great native speaking teacher who wasn’t too proud to consult a dictionary sometimes. That’s good. Also keep in mind, sometimes we have to check the dictionary to see why in the world the student chose to use a word that just isn’t quite right in that context. Electronic dictionaries don’t help here. Goodness knows, I’ve run across archaic words and words I haven’t seen since the SAT’s on relatively low-level student papers. I always recommended to my students to try to only use words they already know when writing and only consult dictionaries for spelling. Otherwise, many end up trying to translate word-for-word and you have English words but Chinese writing.
My eyes are full of tears when I come across a “teacher’s” post like this one:“I have a two-year college certificate (non-relevant) and 4-weeks teaching certificate…” Man, 4 weeks! - to cover what takes years. They should really hire only those with at least B.A. in TEFL regardless of your passport.
Even if a qualified teacher slips once in a while for some reason (natives too!) - his language ability is still good enough for little students - plus those errors are well made up for by profound knowledge of the child’s psychology thing - which helps a lot in a number of situations.
As to what some of you picked out as a mistake in my post - I do know that some American guys don’t like Perfect tense. The thing is it exists; this is a norm of the English language which comes from BBC English or Queen’s English (too complicated for some of you though).
Just for your pleasure - here’s another story from my practical experience.
I had an American native boy of 17 for a student who had hard times understanding what Past Perfect is and what that is for (we had to break that down into 2 classes). I know - one can go away with just a limited choice of grammar phenomena in his/her speech - alright! Let’s draw distinction - basic and advanced, that’s it. Besides, some poster here was right to say that some language instances are “arguable”. OK, don’t like it (don’t know it) - don’t use it (don’t pick arguable mistakes)
P.S. Here’s a friendly piece of advice for everyone present - recheck your posts for mistakes before you post those, non-natives will think of you better. Actually, native apeakers should also keep their eyes open for mistakes they make. It might be good for your career. I’d rather change my first post premise - Unlike myself, you guys cannot afford to make mistakes, it might cost you dearer.
Sputnik,
I’m a native speaking English teacher. I have a teaching qualification - not as good as I’d like - and some experience - not as much as I’d like. I have a number of Taiwanese and other non native-speaking English teacher friends. They have studied more and have more teaching experience than me. I respect that and will sometimes ask them for advice. In the same way they will also ask me for advice from time to time on usage issues etc. Whenever possible I try to get advice and tips from others including fellow teachers who have even less experience than and are not as qualified as me.
Nobody is arguing with what seems to be your basic premise - that non-native speakers can be very good teachers. They are simply taking issue with what seems to be a misperception on your part. You seem to believe that you make very few mistakes, whether in style, usage or grammar. You stated that your ‘mistake’ was to use perfect tense, which some Americans didn’t like. In fact there were a number of mistakes - I didn’t notice any involving a choice of perfect or past simple as you were implying, but I noticed quite a few others. (If you’d like more information on them, private message me).
Non-native speakers will generally make more mistakes than reasonably well-educated native speakers - I have observed this in quite a few cases. If they are aware of this likelihood, that will make them even better teachers as they do not presume that they know everything. Similarly, those native speakers such as myself who have not had a very thorough formal grammatical education should be aware of this and open to learning more.
I suppose another issue here is what are “mistakes.” Native speakers can generally tell the difference between a mistake made by another native speaker and a mistake made by a non-native speaker. The native speaker mistake is basically one that we might make ourselves due to thinking faster than we type, not editting, and grammar points that were never well addressed in native language learning environments. The non-native speaker mistake sounds “funny” to the native speaker: odd word choice, inappropriate use of idioms and phrases, awkward sentence construction and the like. Certainly, there are native speakers who make “odd” mistakes (and we wonder how they got through college!) and there are non-native speakers who come off as native speakers (and we all envy them to no end!).
As joesax noted, we can learn from each other. But we learn a lot more if we respect each other instead of tearing each other down. This goes both ways. So, yeah, it’s not fair that unqualified folks can teach English in Taiwan… but the fact is that there is a demand and a government policy that encourages them to teach. At least some of them make an effort and take it seriously. Remember, you are in a forum that by its nature will have a disproportionate number of those English teachers you are putting down.
On the other hand, us native speakers ought to take it easy on the non-native speakers who contribute to the site. They are here to communicate their views, not to have their writing ability critiqued.
I am considering going back to teaching soon…as some of the other posters have said…working in Taiwan in business can be very time consuming and sometimes not very fulfilling. Teaching is a good option that
- Can leave one more time
- Not too stressful
- Organise time better
- Allow me to do more exercise
- Allow me to study chinese
- Allow me to go out and about during the daytime in the sunshine
- Make more money
- Improve students future
While it may not be as glamorous as my other jobs here and people will not be as impressed when I tell them ‘I’m an english teacher’ , I personally think it’s a good option in the short term.
I think Sputnik is well qualified to teach english in college. While he does make the odd non-native grammar mistake he has the know-how to help construct and deconstruct english for non-natives. If I was careful while I am writing I would make less mistakes but would not be able to explain very well why or how to higher level students.
However I think I am very suitable as a teacher for mid-level students or younger students as I can help them get the feel for the language. I don’t believe in that TEFL b%llsh&t. The best teachers I know did a degree in education and had work experience before they came here or just learnt on the job in Taiwan. A master’s in TEFL is good I admit but thats takes at least a year. Nothing beats on the job experience though.
If Taiwan didn’t allow unqualified teachers to teach there wouldn’t be enough teachers, it would be too expensive for most students and IMO most teachers here do a fairly decent job…it’s not rocket science teaching kids and buxiban now is it?
The Taiwanese are catching onto English faster than a lot of other nations around here, they don’t seem to be doing such a bad job.
Finally it’s the experience of interacting with native english speakers and foreigners that is just as enriching and interesting for the kids which is why they much prefer foreigners to teach them.
This has got to be one of the dumbest discussions yet. Fer crisakes, if you like teaching teach. If you don’t then don’t. If you’re thinking about teaching then give it a try. There is no one right path for everyone.
As for the mistakes discussion, why even debate it? We all make mistakes, but obviously native English speakers on average will speak better English than non-native English speakers, though some non-native speakers do very well.
Did I miss anything?
Given the wide array of topics that have been discussed on Oriented/Segue/Forumosa, I doubt this would make the top ten!
Joesax,
thank you for the in-depth comments, I really appreciate your consideration.
I’d like to back some of my usage (in italics) though.
CAPITALIZATION
“I have graduated a 5-year Education University and 4-year Linguistic College.”
In my opinion, there is no need to capitalize ‘education’, ‘linguistic’, and ‘college’. You would use capitals if you were giving the name of the college, such as ‘Summer Hill Linguistic College’, but the words are not proper nouns in this case as you use the article ‘a’.
[i]Sputnik: I capitalize those as I treat each as a name of a school subject being a respective major at the respective school, hence
And, Sputnik, I suggest not quoting everything here since it make the post so long. Often, we can refer back to earlier posts. I don’t mind addressing grammar and correct useage, but let’s keep it focused on the language, not attacking and defending.
This does bring up some of the pitfalls that both native and non-native English speaking teachers need to be aware of. Sputnik, you’ve got references and solid grammatical ground for building the sentences the way that you did. Unfortunately, English isn’t as science. Correct useage does figure into fluency. So, just as joesax said eariler, take advantage of the native-speaker’s “feel” of the language.
And native-speakers, notice that what first appear as grammar mistakes are mostly useage issues. Remember what a crazy language English can be. When non-native-speakers break a rule, it’s usually wrong, but when a native-speaker breaks a rule it’s right. Of course, this is how langauges works, but it can be frustrating. There are also times when a student has referred to a source that has some differences in useage to what you are familiar with. Luckily, at my last school, there were teachers from most everywhere to check if a funny-sounding phrase was correct where they came from.
(I know we’re completely off-topic. If it looks like this is going anywhere interesting from here, we can start a new thread. If not, I can lock it later.)
[posted before reading ckvw’s helpful post]
Hi Sputnik, glad you found my private message interesting. I didn’t have time to look up sources etc; maybe if I had I would have found some of the points you make.
I don’t mind that you posted the private message on the public forum, but I’m posting your request to me and the missing bits of my message so people don’t think I’m an interfering pedant (although I probably am a bit, come to think of it…).
From: Sputnik
To: joesax
Subject: Curious
Joesax,
I’d like to take you at your word and ask you about those mistakes I made, it might be instructive.
Sputnik
From: joesax
To: Sputnik
Hi Sputnik, thanks for writing back. I have great respect for your qualifications and experience and am sure that in many ways you are a better teacher than me. While I have commented on a few usage and grammatical points below, the comments are really just my opinion. We have already agreed that every teacher, native-speaking or otherwise, makes a few ‘mistakes’ and that these are not important compared to his or her general skills. I am sure that anybody would be able to find numerous spelling or other mistakes in my posts…
…I hope the above is interesting to you. Please accept my assurances that I do not in any way wish to belittle you by making these comments; indeed if I had that intention I would be a hypocrite since I make numerous mistakes in my own posts.
Best wishes and I hope to see your interesting posts often on the Segue forum.
As a fellow Ohioan, Sputnik, may I offer you some advice about posting on here?
Number one, don’t spout off your opinion based on limited experience. You’ve probably never taught English in Taiwan let alone lived in Taiwan so you cannot rightfully judge those who do. I might not like that people who have degrees in underwater basket weaving can get a job teaching English to children very much, but I do admire people who are dedicated to their work as an educator which is something totally different from actual certification. I think that having a background in something other than teaching brings something to their classroom and gives their teaching a distinct flavor. Not only might that person’s students learn English from a compassionate teacher, but they all might have nicely-woven baskets to boot.
Number two, as someone who is about embark on that 4-week CELTA program that you so despise, let me remind you that despite all the training you might have in teaching English and degrees in linguistics (I have one too along with a BA in French and TESOL certification through my university…big deal), you cannot fail to realize that this single piece of paper, despite being crammed into 28 days, is practically a ticket to getting most ESL/EFL jobs on this planet. It’s supposed to be a means to get your feet wet so that you have a better foundation on which to build your ELT career rather than having nothing at all. It’s not supposed to be a substitute for years of teaching experience but a way to make sense of the experiences that you are going to embark upon as a teacher.
Number three, sit back and relax. In just your first 10 posts you have pissed off a lot of people without even having a real feel for this forum. Honestly, posts like the ones you have put up belong on a site like tealit.com (be insulted…be very insulted 
) than on a higher-quality one like forumosa.com. Ask questions first to learn about the country, the teaching environment, and the people living here; if you are not swayed one way or another after spending some time posting here, then start posting claims like yours if that’s what you want. I think, however, that people who start shooting off before establishing a presence here don’t tend to be long-lasting members of the community. This seems to follow suit with foreigners coming to Taiwan who complain as soon as they get off the plane and find themselves getting back on it shortly thereafter.
I don’t like to see intelligent, well-intending people take the revolving door route through Taiwan and personally, I’d like to see you stick around. Take a deep breath and try starting in the Open Forum or Living in Taiwan discussions if you can’t handle more tactful, diplomatic posts here in the Teaching English in Taiwan section yet.
Good luck to you, from one Ohioan to another.
This thread is going nowhere. I’m all for locking it. Is there any point in keeping it open ?
Why don’t ya’ll just split the thread instead of locking it?
Good idea! I’ve done that. I’m going to go ahead and lock this topic. If you wish to address any of the issues in this thread, simply quote it or refer back to the thread.