Dr. Roger C. S. Lin et. al. v. United States of America

A storm in a teapot or will it amount to something more?
taiwankey.net/dc/tforumtw.htm
I had previously read Richard Hartzell’s theory on how America has neglected it’s obligations and that Taiwan should be under U.S. jurisdiction with all local Taiwanese people entitled to U.S. nationality. (This US nationality status would be similar to what the people in Guam or Puerto Rico enjoyed after the Spanish American War.) However it seems that this has gotten much more serious and has now developed into a lawsuit!!

I wonder how the local Taiwanese would feel about being U.S. nationals and carrying U.S. passports? No prizes for guessing how the Chinese officialdom in the PRC would feel.

How about the U.S. ? Even if everything in the lawsuit is the irrefutable truth, could they admit it? It seems to be put forward on very solid grounds, with a great deal of research, so I am wondering … Can it be easily refuted?

After arguing about the merits and drawbacks of “Taiwan independence” vs. “Unification with the PRC” for decades, can the Taiwanese people easily ignore this new option?

Can they easily ignore it? Hell yes. Crackpots come out the woodwork here all the time. They get their 10 minutes in the spotlight and then interest fades.
The only way they’ll get TOTALLY ignored is if the release of their theory coincides with something more important. That new cold-stone ice cream shop, for example, would be considered FAR more important.

Unless you actually get the US coming to blows with the PRC over Taiwan, I dont hold out much hope for this proposition, politically speaking. Now I dont presume to know the relevant laws involved, but in securing a favorable declaration, would the plaintiffs likely run against hurdles of the court considering policy implication? Or would the court just pass the ball to the other two branches?

[quote=“sandman”]Can they easily ignore it? Hell yes. Crackpots come out the woodwork here all the time. They get their 10 minutes in the spotlight and then interest fades.
The only way they’ll get TOTALLY ignored is if the release of their theory coincides with something more important. That new cold-stone ice cream shop, for example, would be considered FAR more important.[/quote]

The irony is that there’s a lot of truth in your post. Taking a quick quote from wiki on Epistemology (theory of knowledge ).

Everyone I know in Taiwan believes there are three options (pro’s and con’s and semantics can be left out for arguments sake). TI, Unification and the Status Quo. No one I have spoken to has even heard the theory and now lawsuit brought about by Richard.

Many people put forward arguments for one over the other based on historical facts, treaties and agreements. If the lawsuit represents a truthful representation of the series of events that have led Taiwan to the point it is today and is given some media coverage, do you think this might not also have an effect on their beliefs?

Very interesting lawsuit.
taiwankey.net/dc/twcomplaint.pdf

I didn’t read it closely, but I suspect there are some very strong arguments on the other side. Of course there are. And of course it will amount to nothing. Still, it’s interesting.

And, incidentally, they do appear to have a good, competent attorney handling their case, which is something crackpots with crackpot theories often don’t have.
charlescamplaw.com/home/index.php

I’ve heard the pan blue conspiracy theories that the US is trying to turn Taiwan into a proper state. I say that’s bullcrap… I think the real reason this kind of lawsuit is going on is to try to give some legal basis to let the US have a role in deciding Taiwan’s international status.
Do the Taiwanese want this? I seriously doubt if many Taiwanese would want to be a US state or even territory. But, many people would probably feel that the US would let Taiwan decide it’s own status/future - unlike China. The deep blues would like to hear rumors about it cause it will support their conspiracy theories - but would become frantic if they thought it actually might happen.
Does the US want this? Can’t imagine the US would want the headache of dealing with it, frankly.

I happen to like this particular quest, perhaps because it is so quixotic. I’ll be very interested to hear the arguments on the other side, of course.

Let me give the kids a little free legal advice—the Federal courts have, I am told, really been coming down hard on frivolous lawsuits, granting summary dismissals and costs to be paid by the plaintiff.

All of which, as a US tax payer, I applaud. The US federal courts are not a place for idiots to play their games; which is what this is. Even summary dismissals end up costing the taxpayers money. Plus—it is disrespectful of the US court system to take what I call a “clown claim” like this and try and force it through the system.

One of the many things that create a pubic contempt for the Taiwanese court system is when the various idiots, be they Mando Pop Divas, sleazy politicos, crazy Taiwanese ex-wives and all the rest who grace the nightly news pushing the “I wanna file a suit button” over at the Taipei Main courthouse, use the Taiwanese legal system as a soap box for publicity.

The court is a serious place for serious business. Not for this bullshit.

Take care,
Brian Kennedy

Hi Brian,
You bring up a good point. It’s my understanding that The federal court in Washington D.C. has accepted the case, and the U.S. Attorney General has until late December 2006 to reply.

Just because it sounds a little woo-woo doesn’t mean it’s frivolous. I mean, a decade or so back and people were still having trouble with the concept that someone could be sitting in his room, typing on a computer, and thereby commit “theft”.

The important thing isn’t whether Taiwanese, Americans, or their respective governments change their minds. The important thing is whether some stray Taiwanese might not be able to set a legal precedent, by convincing a U.S. court to give him a passport. Once this happens (if it happens), and the population of Taiwan gets wind of it, the situation will have radically changed.

So, how will the court react? By deferring to the executive, saying this is a foreign policy matter? (Well that’s the point in dispute, isn’t it?) By pointing to political reality, or the passage of six decades, as capable of negating the case’s merits? By just throwing it out, as with those tax cases? Or will we get an activist judge, like happened with gay marriage?

Well, I guess we’ll know in a month. (Right?)

Interesting. The other point to keep in mind is that this apparently was a fallback State Department position until the early 1970s. It was kept as a sort of contingency in case there was a coup (as may almost have happened in 1955 in the Sun Li-jen incident or some other domestic disturbance that led to the fall of the ROC government.

I agree that the idea has virtually no political support in Taiwan, and it is somewhat unfortunate in the sense that encourages the peculiar Chinese/Taiwanese obssession with legal and bureaucratic formalism.

I see three things at least that will prevent an accurate read of what average Taiwaneses want in regard to this matter. I will call them the 3 Ps. Pride. Political correctness. Politicians

If you get rid of this trio, I think you ll be surprised at how different Taiwanese sentiment towards US jurisdiction or holding US passport will be from the generally accepted impression. When Taiwanese people say they will prefer that Taiwan remain Taiwanese, not US, how much of that is their pride talking?

Its not just Taiwanese, but Chinese and Asians in general; its fair to say they consider acquistion of US residency/citizenship to be the ultimate measure of economic success, a status symbol. Those who can, already have. If it were to become a feasible option for ordinary Taiwanese, realistically how many would turn down the opportunity? Its just that reality may have contributed to their reticience or even reluctance on this point, no?

Also why should the privilege of an US citizenship be restricted to wealth or background? Why must you be a Koo or a Soong in order to qualify? I think if the question is ever asked of the Taiwanese, politicians should spare the people from their wisdom.

I do not mean the above as an insult to the Taiwanese people, its after all an understandable human traits to always seek improvement to their life and welfare. :slight_smile:

Hi,

My understanding of this is the parties that have brought the suit forward have the financial means to pay for it and have lived sometime in Taiwan to have a personal interest in Taiwan.

My view is that the “point” of the suit is to seek clarity of the position of Taiwan, in its current form everyone want Taiwan to remain as a quasi-sovereign entity without saying one way or another as to exactly what that state is.

For America, it is far cheaper economically to keep Taiwan in a suspended state as this keeps China happy and their no cost of maintaining a military campaign to protect Taiwan.

On the other hand, Taiwan is not part of China and this maintains a buffer against China expanding into the Pacific.

America benefits from a status quo, Taiwan does not.

Now on the other hand, the question as whether or not the suit is valid is an interesting point.

Consider this, if from an internation legal view point China did have a claim over Taiwan, why is it…

  • Taiwan issues their own passports?
  • Chinese need visas to visit Taiwan?
  • Chinese government must ask to enter Taiwan?

Because China has no legal claim over Taiwan. China gave up their rights over Taiwan in the 1800s to Japan, and Japan gave up those same rights to the Allies in the 1940s.

At present, America is the steward of Taiwan, who originally assigned the KMT as the property manager (note: when you hire a property manager to manage your property, the manager is not allowed the steal the fridge - and they cannot claim the TV is theirs).

And that arrangement was to continue until Taiwan become self governing, and until the people of Taiwan asked for the right of sovereign self rule - which the President of Taiwan must ask for from the President of America.

However, in order to do this, Taiwan would need to hold a referendum to ask the people if they would like to become a sovereignty. Now the chances of that happening while the KMT control the legislature is slim. But that is the process required.

Now the anti-succession law enacted by China, does not hold any legal weight in International law because it can only apply (if at all) to parts of China, which Taiwan is not.

Any invasion of Taiwan by China would be an act of war.

So coming back to the point of this thread, I think the purpose of the suit is to force America to admit to the truth. These are the outcomes as I see it;

a) America acknowledges Taiwan under its laws and grants citizenship (unlikely)
b) America asks the Taiwan Government to propose a referendum to determine whether Taiwan wants to be granted sovereignty, or become Americans (slightly more likely)
c) The American Government smothers the suit and pleads national security - i.e. if the suit were to proceed the truth would force America into a possible conflict with China over Taiwan because American would have to admit to the world that they possess Taiwan, China has been lying all along (more than likely).

Note: scenario (a) and (b) would mean Taiwan is not an independant state and things like the WHO, Olympics etc would no longer apply. Whereas (c) could imply the Taiwan Act is rendered redundant freeing American from “having” to defend Taiwan, to deciding to.

If China were to invade Taiwan in scenario (b) I wonder what the Australian Government would do(?) It would be hypocritical to get involved in East Timor, then stand aside for Taiwan.

Just some thoughts
Michael

I think that this will be a bone hard to chew for the US courts. There are too many implications, but the fact is that the present situation was created by US in the first place (in their fight against communism at all cost). Now we have the own American legal system obligated to give an answer to the matter, which might prove to be a difficult one. Whatever the answer is (unless the courts decide not to decide anything), the Taiwanese people have nothing to loose - all the options will mean to clarify the real position (legal one) of the US over Taiwan. The one who has more to loose is the PRC itself, as the more these things come to the surface, the less their claims over Taiwan become valid.

[quote=“brianlkennedy”]All of which, as a US tax payer, I applaud. The US federal courts are not a place for idiots to play their games; which is what this is. Even summary dismissals end up costing the taxpayers money. Plus—it is disrespectful of the US court system to take what I call a “clown claim” like this and try and force it through the system.

One of the many things that create a pubic contempt for the Taiwanese court system is when the various idiots, be they Mando Pop Divas, sleazy politicos, crazy Taiwanese ex-wives and all the rest who grace the nightly news pushing the “I wanna file a suit button” over at the Taipei Main courthouse, use the Taiwanese legal system as a soap box for publicity.

The court is a serious place for serious business. Not for this bullshit.

Take care,
Brian Kennedy[/quote]Oh yeah, the US has no time for frivilous lawsuits. That’s cause their too busy with class action suits against pharmaceutical companies, medical malpractice suits, worker’s compensation claims, sexual harrasment at the workplace, etc… Who’s got time for abstract, trivial concepts like national sovereignty?? Theres no money in that.

It’s the lawyers who have swamped the court system with the frivilous cases they’re trying to reduce now. Why should everyond have to sit through those commercials on TV, “Have you been hurt at work? We can help you get the money you deserve”. Or, “Have you taken the drug ziritol and experienced headaches, drowsiness, etc?, Contact us right away as you may be part of a class action suit against this company”. Too many lawyers and not enough cases to go around… Gotta get creative… Where do you think the Taiwanese learned that you can sue anybody for anything? The Taiwanese court system probably has far fewer cases than the US…

this is an interesting point. I noticed today in the TT an article on “The nation’s sovereignty and legal status differ” taipeitimes.com/News/editori … 2003337841

How open to interpretation is the legal status, can every side put forward solid arguments to back up their claims. How definitive is the lawsuit?

Actually, the US does seem to be on a conquest/the Great American Empire kick right now. I bet it’ll be cheaper than the mess they are making trying to control Iraq. And many of the Taiwanese have one foot in the US anyways. Maybe it’ll just be a matter of changing the color of the stamp in their American passports.

Even if they desire Taiwan to be a part of the US, approval by the US Congress is required for the US to acquire a new territory.

That is not unthinkable.

If Taiwan does become fully “independent” someday, it will be the result of a long, hard struggle, and hopefully a peaceful one. In the end it will probably be hard to say what event marked the turning point of no return (to the status quo I guess). In that context, I think this legal action is interesting. I hope they plan to milk it for its PR value as well.

Maybe we should start a pool on it. Someone said the case has been accepted by a court. What does that mean? Will a precedent definitely be set one way or the other on this U.S. territory line of argument? If so, I wonder if a little more pump priming might have been in order.

[quote=“ImaniOU”]Actually, the US does seem to be on a conquest/the Great American Empire kick right now.[/quote] The key words are right now. Embarassingly enough, this is just a Bush thing that will hopefully be rectified in the near future. And, you have a good point about the many dual citizenships with the US of Taiwanese - indeed they are pragmatic. Question: If China is the future why do the great Panda diplomats (Lien Chan and James Soong) have all their assets (and family) in the US? As I recall, LC has about 6 houses in the US - so many that he even forgot to claim one on his tax return… Ooooops - said he forgot about that one… Soong, of course, was busted trying to transfer about $4Million dollars to the US using the names of his relatives and ultimately had to pay taxes on it… The great anti-corruption warrior himself… Certainly makes A-Bian look pretty small-time…