[quote=“plasmatron”]Redwagon may be right about the depths of depravity you can find in mainland China, but that it seems is exactly the favourite one stop absolver of responsibility for low class Taiwanese, no matter how boorish and crass their behaviour is they just say “China is worse” and pat themselves on the back… [/quote]You’re right of course. My comment needed a “(but that ain’t saying much)” after it.
Keep in mind that there are many decent and courteous people in Taiwan. The decent and courteous people may even be the vast majority and the pricks and losers who lack manners just get all the attention because of the nature of their behavior. Those who are polite don’t draw attention to themselves.
The difference may be just what sort of behavior is tolerated, not what sort of behavior is typical.
I find the cure for my negativity towards Taiwanese jerks to be looking for instances where a Taiwanese person stops and lets another person pass, politely gets out of another person’s way, or something else that is obviously courteous beyond expectations.
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]Keep in mind that there are many decent and courteous people in Taiwan. The decent and courteous people may even be the vast majority and the pricks and losers who lack manners just get all the attention because of the nature of their behavior. Those who are polite don’t draw attention to themselves.
The difference may be just what sort of behavior is tolerated, not what sort of behavior is typical.
I find the cure for my negativity towards Taiwanese jerks to be looking for instances where a Taiwanese person stops and lets another person pass, politely gets out of another person’s way, or something else that is obviously courteous beyond expectations.[/quote]
Oh NOOOOES! I’m finding myself agreeing with a member of the godsquad! 
Contrasting cultures is futile. Ranting a little is fine, though.
I enjoyed the post, Maoman.
It’s not culturalist. My view about Taiwan has changed so much in the 4 years I have been here. You see things different after you’ve become accustomed to daily life, after having lived here the first couple of years. And it is disappointing.
Neither do I feel Taiwan is the kind of place that is improving; I actually fear it is the contrary. Taiwanese are proud of themselves, a bit too much. Pride is not necessarily bad, but they really seem unable to take an honest critical look at their environment (and manners).
Besides generally lacking manners, I also think so many people here are moody, and I encounter rude behaviour every day. I wonder how these people arrive at a state of mind where they don’t even care to hold a door open for the next person. It’s normal here. Personally, I believe that in many many ways they don’t care at all for the environment / milieu they live in, at a very basic level. And as you said, when the parents don’t have standards, how would their children develop them?
I definitely prefer western people’s manners and style!
You know… they can copy our architecture, and make their great “新歐洲” buildings (referring to the shitty Nanshijao area, but it could be anywhere). But come back 10 years later, and take another look…
I’ve been back in the States for about two years now and my current job occasionally requires me to interact with foreign diplomats at the state government level. These interactions have occurred at both formal and informal functions, including a governor’s inauguration and trade events.
From what I have seen, the Chinese diplomats are pushy and rude, and the Taiwanese just seem clueless, friendly, but clueless. At a private one hour gathering of foreign diplomats and the just re-elected governor for his inauguration, the Chinese diplomats burst into the room 50 minutes late, stormed to the podium with their personal photographer, took a bunch of pics of themselves with the governor, said a few words about “cooperation” and “relationships”, and then left the room as abruptly as they had entered. What made things even worse was the fact that the Chinese cut in line in front of other diplomats who had been at the event since the beginning and were waiting for their chance to say a few words with the governor.
On two other occasions, Taiwanese diplomats have grabbed onto the governor’s arm and blabbered incessantly about the need for the state to support a Taiwan-U.S. free trade agreement, each time causing aids to step in and separate the Taiwanese from the governor. This occurring after I had made it clear to the Taiwanese that the current governor is very critical of free trade agreements and would not lend his support to their cause, explaining that they should target state legislators instead.
I have been designated a sort of China “expert” in my home state and when these things have happened, everyone looks to me to deal with the rude behavior. I always shrug and say “5,000 years of culture is difficult to unlearn.”
I would like to comment on the East - West title to this thread. The Japanese, Korean, Indonesian and Thai diplomats that I have dealt with have been extremely polite. I think it’s less of an East-West thing and more of a “Chinese/Taiwanese - anything foreign thing.” 
So when the Taiwan naysayers start spouting off, we just point to this thread, right? Right??! 
Taiwan in the early days was a dangerous island where the natives would kill anyone who shipwrecked on it. It was a NO Man’s Land for thousands of years. The Chinese who came over in greater and greater numbers were mostly young men who were not cultured individuals but rather adventurers , misfits , thugs , coolies and what not. They intermarried with the natives mainly as hardly any women came from China. This genetic genome has survived to this day.
Headhunters, adventurers,coolies,thugs. Whats changed?
We have the headhunters finding heads for jobs now, the adventurer (english teachers and other furriners), coolies (the blue collar imports) and thugs (the politicians). Aint much a whole lot different boys. 
oh YA, the Misfits (some forumosans??? ) 
Then why is there consensus on here that Mainland Chinese are even less civilized?
Cuz they is nobodies and they belong OVER THERE 
Yes Chinese are becoming known the world over as being very pushy , very unnice. All the little emporers becoming older (the one child policy) and creating havoc . The Super Me First breed.
Chinese are vocal, pushy, ignorant and irrespectful of others (in other words they are what Taiwan people largely were or are getting away from ).
Taiwanren are coming along on the humanities scale and are less subhuman then the Chinese who are further behind is all.
Chinese/Taiwanese are a rowdy bunch and have traditionally only responded to FORCE or the threat of force. They dont naturally behave. They have a lot of good traits, like being clever and ingenious and enterprising and work like ants, among others. But social behavior is definitely needing revision. Especially as related to non-chinese. Chinese can handle each other pretty well. I mean walking in TAipei has really always been a contact sport. And who says a rope around something means you cant go in that area anyway?? 
And can you imagine our politicos en masse in the UN??
Probably.
No.
No.
I believe you’re right.
A video prior to departure on how to behave like civilized folks sounds like a good idea. Holy crap ( )! I’ve never once encountered shit in the trash chute on any YVR<>TPE flights!
Maybe students and new immigrants should all receive a handbook on how to do things in Canada. I work at a college and right now we have a lot of international students. Just the other day, a student was having a smoke right outside the administration building and did one of those throaty spit thick loogie deals. Then, inside the building on one of the stairs, a nice fat chunk of spit. I think I’m going to talk to the IE chair about a handbook for international students. But with everyone being so PC sensitive I doubt anything will change.
I don’t go out of my way to link bad behavior with race, but some people make it so easy.
I am just going to be SSSooooooo careful next time I am in a plane’s toilet.
A friend of mine often flies between Toronto and London. He says that he doesn’t eat anything or go to the toilet during flights, and wears a surgical mask at all times.
I think he may be on to something…
[quote=“tommy525”]Taiwan in the early days was a dangerous island where the natives would kill anyone who shipwrecked on it. It was a NO Man’s Land for thousands of years. The Chinese who came over in greater and greater numbers were mostly young men who were not cultured individuals but rather adventurers , misfits , thugs , coolies and what not. They intermarried with the natives mainly as hardly any women came from China. This genetic genome has survived to this day.
Headhunters, adventurers,coolies,thugs. Whats changed?
We have the headhunters finding heads for jobs now, the adventurer (English teachers and other furriners), coolies (the blue collar imports) and thugs (the politicians). Aint much a whole lot different boys.
oh YA, the Misfits (some forumosans??? ) [/quote]
Then how come most Aussies I know are far more polite? Seeing as how they’re descendants of GB criminal and rejects…
And if the KMT were the ruling class, shouldn’t their presence have upped civilization standards?
How come my “Taiwanese” ie bendiren friend is one of the most gracious, polite, and generous persons I know… by US standards?
Your idea is cuckoo.
Question for the long-timers: After having lived in Taiwan for many years, have you ever traveled to a new, clean and orderly country, and had regrets about your decision to come to Taiwan in the first place?
I love living here. I recognize the problems, and occasionally rant like almost any expat, but I’ve always been satisfied with the decision to make Taiwan my home. But a couple of years ago, after well over a decade of Taiwan life, I went to Germany for the first time. The people were wonderful. Everything was neat and organized, and I could eat German food forever. And for the first time, I thought to myself: “Why didn’t I come here in 1990?”. It was the first pang of regret I’ve had about my Taiwan choice. Anyone else run into this?
EAch country in Asia has its own identity. Taiwan is no exception. It is often in your face. Its certainly got its own idiosyncracies. But those people born on Taiwan usually feel a certain tie to it. Those not born on Taiwan may or may not develop this tie. But most people who have lived on Taiwan any number of years have a passion for the island. HOw many of these long timers are not passionate or drawn to strong emotion about the place? Both good and bad. How many people are indifferent? Not many.
I think its in the flub.com charter that I’m not permitted to agree with Chaon, but fuck it…
[quote=“Jack Burton”][quote=“tommy525”]Taiwan in the early days was a dangerous island where the natives would kill anyone who shipwrecked on it. It was a NO Man’s Land for thousands of years. The Chinese who came over in greater and greater numbers were mostly young men who were not cultured individuals but rather adventurers , misfits , thugs , coolies and what not. They intermarried with the natives mainly as hardly any women came from China. This genetic genome has survived to this day.
Headhunters, adventurers,coolies,thugs. Whats changed?
We have the headhunters finding heads for jobs now, the adventurer (English teachers and other furriners), coolies (the blue collar imports) and thugs (the politicians). Aint much a whole lot different boys.
oh YA, the Misfits (some forumosans??? ) [/quote]
Then how come most Aussies I know are far more polite? Seeing as how they’re descendants of GB criminal and rejects…
And if the KMT were the ruling class, shouldn’t their presence have upped civilization standards?
How come my “Taiwanese” ie bendiren friend is one of the most gracious, polite, and generous persons I know… by US standards?
Your idea is cuckoo.[/quote]
I am mostly just having a bit of fun here. FAct is TAiwan is unique. Its got character . Its a 2nd world nation heading for 1st world. China is a 3rd world country heading for second world (and first). Taiwanese people are by and large pretty nice people and honest and hardworking and happy. Happy smiling people they are .
Ozzies are still probably held to be suspect in Brit society maybe? Has anyone asked them? IM kidding IM kidding. Relax.