Education minister backs teaching romanization for Taiwanese

Language Taiwanese and Hakka Corner
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I pointed out in another thread regarding his policies on Taiwan History. http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2004/04/29/2003138490 Now we see that he wants to teach Taiwanese using a romanized alphabet, great idea!!! This new Minister of Education seems like a great choice!!

[quote=“TaipeiTimes”] The Global Coalition for Taiwanese Languages yesterday held a press conference to protest recent remarks by Chinese Nationalist Party (KMT) Legislator Hung Hsiu-chu (洪秀柱) that using a Romanized phonetic system to teach native languages would constitute a betrayal of Chinese culture.
Hung made the remark at a press conference last Thursday in response to rumors that incoming Minister of Education Tu Cheng-sheng (杜正勝) was pushing for the use of a Romanized phonetic system to teach Hoklo (commonly known as Taiwanese) in elementary schools. Currently, elementary school students are required to take at least one course on a local language, such as Hoklo, Hakka or an Aboriginal tongue.

The coalition, previously named the Global Taiwanese Movement Federation, supports the use of a Romanized phonetic system. It countered Hung’s claims, saying the current system is no more loyal to Hoklo than a Romanized system.

“Han characters and the current phonetic system cannot capture the true sound and essence of Hoklo; Hoklo cannot be represented accurately with the Mandarin Chinese system,” said Lee Chin-an (李勤岸), a spokesman for the group.

Currently, the Hoklo language in Taiwan is represented by Han characters, with adapted charac-ters representing words unique to Hoklo. The coalition said that such a system was inefficient due to the sheer number of words that would have to be created to represent all the words in Hoklo. The added burden of learning these characters makes Hoklo difficult to learn for non-native speakers, the coalition added.

“A Romanized phonetic system is very easy to learn and facilitates widespread native-language education. If you learn the 18 sounds of the system, then you can speak Hoklo, Hakka, or indigenous languages without any barriers,” Lee said.

“Using a Romanized system would make Hoklo a more international language that can be easily learned by all people,” Lee added.

[/quote] http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2004/06/08/2003174219

P.S.: Please do not merge this thread with my other thread on the new Minister of Education. That other thread degraded into an off topic discussion.

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Hi hobart

I was going to comment on this myself. It’s about time. I saw that they would be using a combined character/romanization approach. As is the reality of how taiwanese has ever been written. Hopefully they will stick with it. Predicatably the Guomindang is against it… excuses being it will confuse the children, betrayal, etc. How many letters do you suppose this Hong has written in Taiwanese? I’d bet he wouldn’t know culture if it came up and bit him in the ass. They will oppose any steps towards the popularization of Taiwanese language spoken or written, and anything chen or his government wants to do in general.

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The writing of Taiwanese began with romanization – no characters. This is still used in some circles. There are lots and lots of different systems out there. The previous minister seemed to be advocating using characters only; but Huang also was quoted as saying that he wanted to use only Chinese characters for the Aboriginal languages as well, which is just plain stupid.

The mixed character/romanization system won’t serve Taiwanese well, especially because Mandarin is still seen as the “high” language and so characters will tend to be read with Mandarin pronunciations; but at least more people will be learning romanization.

Yes, that’s quite true, at least with legislators like Hong. She’d probably oppose the DPP even if it adopted the KMT’s platform completely.

It was particularly galling that she called Robert Cheng, head of the now misnamed Mandarin Promotion Council, a “waiguoren” for having spent so much time overseas. This means he’s not in touch with Taiwanese, she claimed.

In reality, Cheng was overseas as a professor, researching the Taiwanese language, which was not possible to do in Taiwan when he left, during the bad old days of rule by the party she calls her own. :fume:

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a recent article on this

[quote]鄭良偉：羅馬拼音是世界潮流
韓國棟、陳洛薇、江慧真/台北報導
2004-6-04 2:10

「我是委員，不是政務官員，如果雙重國籍不能擔任國語會委員，我馬上辭掉！」精通七種語言的教育部國語會主委鄭良偉昨天回應立委的批評表示，他住在台灣，而且在台灣出版了廿一本書，以此澄清外界說他長居美國、對中華文化沒有深入認識的質疑。

國民黨立委洪秀柱昨日嚴詞抨擊，國語推行委員會主委鄭良偉，本身長居美國、具有雙重國籍，對中華文化並沒有深入認識，連寫一篇中文文章也不通不順。她質疑，扁政府請外國人來推動國語政策，是不是要全面改換目前正在使用中的文字和語言，轉變成「台灣國文字」？

她說，鄭良偉對研究中文人士十分反感，早想把國語委員會內所有對中文有專長的人員除去，換上所謂的「教會羅馬」字人才，還指國語委員會是國語獨尊壓制台灣母語的機構，找這樣的人當主委，決定國小學生的鄉土教材，根本是「請鬼拿藥單」。

教育部昨天則發表新聞稿指出，依據國語推行委員會組織條例規定，主任委員屬兼任性質，鄭良偉長年致力閩南語研究，並在國內出版「台語、華語的結構及動向」等廿一冊有關國語與台語相關研究專書，具有語言學專業，因此聘請他擔任國語會主委。

教育部官員表示，雖然法令沒有明文規定國語會主委能否擁有雙重國籍，但國語會主委一職並非行政主管，屬兼任性質，應該沒有雙重國籍的問題。

「我不喜歡把語言的事情歸於黨派、意識形態。」鄭良偉精通國語、閩南語、客家話、上海話、廣東話、英語、日語七種語言，他指出，羅馬拼音是世界語言的潮流，但有些人卻一定要「排除別人、忠實於我」，一定要用自己的才行，他不認同這樣偏狹的想法。

他認為，要了解自己也尊重別人的語言，因此每個人至少要會二種母語（包含國語）才行。[/quote]

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Interesting that there’s no longer any mention of Tongyong Pinyin, the “multi-purpose, one-size-fits-all” romanization system that can’t be used to romanize Taiwanese. :unamused:

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I often read my elementary students’ school books during break times and I’ve noticed that the Taiwanese as taught there is has romanization (although it’s inconsistent)-they just don’t use it, instead there is zhuyin fuhao next to it. The kids don’t really have any idea why it is there and without the character next to it-they can’t pronouce it.
I originally had a point to make but I’ve forgotten what it was…

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Maoman: You just know I’m not going to let that one pass. Tongyong can and is used to romanize Taiwanenese. You can find examples here: tw-pinyin.taiwantp.net/holo.htm# … %B3q%AB%F7.

I believe that Hung is taking exception to the use of mixed-script systems where a combination of romanization and characters is used. Zheng wrote a great commentary in the Liberty Times supporting teaching kids first in romanization and then later in characters: taiwantp.net/eternity/N-04.htm

I think this is the correct approach too.

[quote=“cranky laowai”]
The writing of Taiwanese began with romanization – no characters. [/quote]

Cranky, I don’t think this is correct. There are 16th song books and novels from southern Fujian that are written in the (Minnan) vernacular using only characters. But I strongly agree that romanization is the best place to start.

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Tongyong can and is used to romanize Taiwanenese. You can find examples here[/quote]
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to know just when Tongyong is really being used and when it’s another system that Yu Bor-chuan stole and stuck the label “Tongyong” on top of. At any rate, even if the examples really are in Tongyong, the point remains that Tongyong, whatever its inventors might claim, is not one system that fits all the languages of Taiwan. It’s several related systems that happen to have had one name given to them. But that’s another thread…

Well, yes, she does say that she’s not opposed to teaching the “local languages” and wants a system that’s not “foreign.”

[quote]

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The romanization of Taiwanese is a very important step towards independence. By creating a speperate language for written communication, the Taiwanese begin to form a uniqueness that demands protection from outside threats. The use of a romanized Hoklo creates a means for the dominant language of Taiwan to grow and survive without conforming to the “colonizer’s” language.

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I can only think of Vietnamese as the only modern asian language that uses western romanization. If the Taiwanese what to attain the status of Vietnamese in linquistic status…

I think Taiwanese should go the way of Cantonese and use it own character set for the dialect.

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Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia? If we count Pacific languages, we can add several pidgins.

But the main issues are technical ones. A lot of Taiwanese “words” don’t have characters that match them. So either somebody creates new characters (adding lots more work for everyone) or you have a mixed system with some sort of alphabet alongside the characters.

Another problem is that people who already know spoken Taiwanese can use the characters, but people who want to learn it will find this a big barrier (because they wouldn’t give the pronounciation, which the learner would need to know). That’s the big advantage of alphabets in general.

If an alphabet is going to be used, it should be one already familiar to Taiwanese users. That leaves Fuyin Jrhau (bo pop mo fo), the Roman alphabet, and possibly Japanese. The first is difficult to adapt to Taiwanese. Romanization looks ugly when used alongside characters (as the MofE wanted to do when last I checked) but has been used a long time by itself (and is also used for related Fujian languages). In general, a system that already exists and is useful is preferable to one that some government official just thunk up.

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[quote=“maowang”]The romanization of Taiwanese is a very important step towards independence. By creating a speperate language for written communication, the Taiwanese begin to form a uniqueness that demands protection from outside threats. The use of a romanized Hoklo creates a means for the dominant language of Taiwan to grow and survive without conforming to the “colonizer’s” language.[/quote]Now do you see why I see no point in learning Chinese ? And the reasons for not learning Taiwanese are as long as my arm, including this thread, and [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/pronunciation-of-boy-and-girl-in-taiwanese/10123/1 one[/url] for just 2 off the top of my head.

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The writing of Taiwanese began with romanization – no characters. This is still used in some circles. [snip]
[/quote]

Here’s a great scan of Taiwanese being romanized.

The article on is very good too.

Oooh… The discussion of the article is also germane to this issue–especially the answer to the first question about Unicode. The author is arguing that a mixed orthography would be better because it would make written Taiwanese more accessible to people familiar with standard forms of Chinese (the cultural argument). It would also make Unicode-based text processing easier (technology argument).

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]I can only think of Vietnamese as the only modern Asian language that uses western romanization. If the Taiwanese what to attain the status of Vietnamese in linquistic status…

I think Taiwanese should go the way of Cantonese and use it own character set for the dialect.[/quote]

You would ac. if it’s western, it must be bad, right? the logic of the inferiority complex.

have you done much writing in taiwanese ac? planning to?

[quote=“cranky”]
The writing of Taiwanese began with romanization – no characters. This is still used in some circles. [/quote]

I know what you mean, but i think it’s not quite true. Outside of a few limited examples like the scripts mentioned above, characters have not been used for “bai hua” writing. however they have been used in many other contexts and have always had accepted minnan pronunciations. this history far predates that of romanization. i’m sure the mixed system has been prevelant since character education was popularized.

[quote]
The mixed character/romanization system won’t serve Taiwanese well, especially because Mandarin is still seen as the “high” language and so characters will tend to be read with Mandarin pronunciations; but at least more people will be learning romanization. [/quote]

Interesting as that is exactly how modern minnan developed. many characters have duel pronunciations–one ancient one apparently dating back to long long ago and a “high” one which came with invaders from north china during the ming years.

pure phonetics would be preferable, but i don’t think it’s acceptable to society at large. a mixed system might just be and would get people learning romanization, i think that is well worthy of support

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More like if it there is a eastern solution to the problem already no point looking for a western solution. I stand by my first suggestion that Cantonese is the way to go. It should get its own character set. And in some newspapers it is already done as such. The mouth radical is so useful in this instances.

It like the pingying issue on Taiwan. I see no reason why language needs to be politicized to such a degree.

So does that mean all dialects including the current mandarin should be romanized.

Some times to tell a joke or if it is very casual writing. But like Cantonese speakers I adhere to standard written Bai Hua Wen when composing Chinese prose. Sprinkle with some Wen Yan Wen when I think I need to convey some education. Then hand it off to the editor to tell me what a terrible job I’ve done.

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[quote=“ac_dropout”]
More like if it there is a eastern solution to the problem already no point looking for a western solution. I stand by my first suggestion that Cantonese is the way to go. It should get its own character set. And in some newspapers it is already done as such. The mouth radical is so useful in this instances.[/quote]

why should people learn a large set of additional characters when they could handle all unknown words with simple phonetics? the simple fact is that they won’t do it.

Cantonese was and is THE chinese dialect in Hong Kong, which made the development of such a writing system possible. the conditions for it do not exist in Taiwan, except in abstract theories, usually from people who could actually care less about the development of Taiwanese writing.

As far as I can see the only one politicizing anything here is you.

ummmm, no?

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There is no such language as “Taiwanese”. If Hokkien is “Taiwanese”, what is that language they speak over in Xiamen? Even in Taiwan, the two main variants of the dialect/language are named after Quanzhou and Zhangzhou - both places in Fujian Province. Call it Hokkien, Minnan, Souther Min, Hoklo…I don’t care, but please not “Taiwanese”.

I could go on about this, but I already did so in the [url=http://tw.forumosa.com/t/taiwan-vs-taiwanese/678/1 vs Taiwanese[/url] thread.

I find it irritating when the wrong characters are used to write Hokkien, such as 香 instead of 芳 for “fragrant” (香 means incense), and 打 instead of 拍 for “hit” or “strike” as in 拍拼 or 拍電話.

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[quote=“Juba”]There is no such language as “Taiwanese”. If Hokkien is “Taiwanese”, what is that language they speak over in Xiamen? Even in Taiwan, the two main variants of the dialect/language are named after Quanzhou and Zhangzhou - both places in Fujian Province. Call it Hokkien, Minnan, Souther Min, Hoklo…I don’t care, but please not “Taiwanese”.
[/quote]
Well, boohoo Juba. I’m sorry if anyone offended you by referring to Minnanhua as Taiyu or Taiwanese.

I don’t speak any form of Minanhua and I have no desire to do so. I don’t really care what Taiwanese people prefer to call it. It is, after all, the language they speak and I think it’s their right to call it what they like.

As I don’t speak any form of Minnanhua, I can’t compare different forms of it. Nevertheless, I am reminded of when some Taiwanese friends came to town (Hong Kong) and we all had dinner at the in-laws’, who are minnanhua speakers from Xiamen. It only took a few minutes for everyone to switch over to Putonghua. Not a word was said in Minnanhua for the rest of the night; they got tired of trying to understand each other in Minnanhua. The in-laws’ Putonghua isn’t so good; they usually speak Minnanhua to each other. The Taiwanese friends were obviously fine in Putonghua, but when in Taiwan would always prefer to speak Minnanhua. Yes, just anecdotal evidence, but I am not so quick to believe anyone who tells me that Minnanhua in Fujian and Minnanhua in Taiwan are the same. They’ve had quite a few years of separation and quite different influences during those years.

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the long seperation and japanese and aboriginal influences make Taiwanese distinct. And as Jive Turkey says, that is how Taiwanese people refer to it themselves. it is the majority dialect. One might contend it is not politically correct to call it taiwanese, but “there is no such language as taiwanese?” ridiculous. there has been one for many many years.

I agree. It’s a very damaging practice for the language.

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Any transcription of Taiwanese would have to be designed with local kids in mind, not foreigners, because it’s the kids who have to learn Taiwanese.

So IMHO it would be best to stick with what they know best: the bopomofo system, updated with new signs if the existing system is not enough to show all Taiwanese sounds.

It sounds crazy to me that a Taiwanese kid should first learn a foreign alphabet before he can learn what should be his own language.

I say, go with bopomofo for the kids, and then go with adapted Chinese characters for adults. Many Taiwanese words are now already written with Chinese characters of their own, and if you go to Xinzhu County, you’ll even find Hakka inscriptions written with Chinese characters.

The whole point about writing Taiwanese is not to score ideological points, it’s to promote the language, so what’s most practical should prevail.