How about usernames in Hanzi then? :discodance:
[quote=“joey0825”][quote=“antarcticbeech”]
Nothing about viruses or bacteria?[/quote]
Of course there are virus and bacteria, just that in ancient times, there is no microscope, so they don’t know the existence of these microorganisms. [/quote]
OK. It’s just you said:
What about the placebo effect?
[quote=“antarcticbeech”]
What about the placebo effect?[/quote]
The placebo effect happens all the time, both in TCM or in modern medicine. Some patient just feel better when seeing a doctor before taking any medicine. In our daily practice, we try our best to rule out every possible reason to make sure the patient feel better because of the TCM intervention. We can’t give all the credits to TCM or modern medicine. Sometimes patient get better because they adjust their habit of living, which I think is very important for them to get better.
True. But in modern evidence-based Western medicine, following clinical trials, medicines don’t get approved for sale if they are not significantly better than placebo.
Thanks for your reply. I’ve written a lot about the problem of doing research in TCM in previous post, you can take a look at it.
Yes, I am sure every precaution to avoid placebos or others is taken. :neutral:
I agree, joey0825. I used to teach pharmacology and physiology to TCM students at UTS, the first chinese medicine degree in Australia, as far back as 1996. Also the place of some of the earliest clinical trials in TCM in Australia. I was even a scorer in some of those trials, and a patient in others.
It is not easy to do, but it’s not because you focus on the differences in each patient: large cohort studies amass enough data to average those differences out. The real reason is that the effect is hard to demonstrate because it is small and variable, if any. Some situations where TCM, specifically acupuncture, is good are in anaesthesia, analgesia, musculoskeletal disorders of uneven muscle tension, pregnancy nausea, childbirth, and some kinds of headache. Much harder to show any benefit in infectious diseases, cancers of various kinds, structural disease like arthritis, scoliosis, etc, or even general internal medicine such as coeliac disease, Crohn’s disease, gallstones, pancreatitis, and so on.
and the massaging of the extremities with rice wine that’s so prevalent in Taiwan? Gimme a break.
Chinese herbology is actually well ahead of the curve in some regards, and a big effort by commercial and scientific organisations has been going on for decades to incorporate as much of it as is effective into Western medicine has been since at least the Soviet Union. E.g. Astragalus, Ashwagandha, Ginger, Ginseng, Bitter Orange, Ephedra, Rhodiola Rosea, Garlic, Horny Goat Weed, Stevia and Goji Berries… Some of these are just good sources of anti-oxidants or vitamins, given, but some are known to be sources of effective adaptogens, nootropics, *amines and other fun things.
I have also seen studies that indicated that acupuncture DOES have an effect, but the mechanism of effect is unknown and the specific points of needle insertion appears to be insignificant. I am willing to admit that further research since I last looked may have negated this view however. Needle-work is also observed to be effective in soft tissue therapies such as dry needling, at least at an anecdotal level. Pain and soft-tissue injuries are poorly understood in western science, so even a repeatable and effective placebo is practically ideal when no therapy has been proven absolutely effective anyway.
We don’t have to succumb to psuedoscience to get some use out of TCM, rather we just should watch out for babies when throwing out our bath-water!
There’s a lot of new ideas coming out of western ‘system biology’ which points to network effects in our body and how the health of one organ affects another, how what we eat affects us and especially now the microorganism that we coexist with and our vital for our health. probiotics is certainly a very interesting area with some amazing papers pointing to how important it can be to our immune system and digestive system. So the idea, we are what we eat, is certainly coming into vogue again.
remember aswell that Europe also had its own version of TCM going back to pagan times and still present in different cultures to some degree. we also had ideas about healing hands etc probably just the human touch and placebo effect that made people feel better!
[quote=“joey0825”][quote=“antarcticbeech”]
What about the placebo effect?[/quote]
The placebo effect happens all the time, both in TCM or in modern medicine. Some patient just feel better when seeing a doctor before taking any medicine. In our daily practice, we try our best to rule out every possible reason to make sure the patient feel better because of the TCM intervention. We can’t give all the credits to TCM or modern medicine. Sometimes patient get better because they adjust their habit of living, which I think is very important for them to get better.[/quote]
I meant in TCM theory. When did TCM become aware of the placebo effect?
I also think TCM is bunk… moreover, it’s a communist plot!
See here for a scathing introduction: sciencebasedmedicine.org/ret … -medicine/
Placebo effect? TCM hasn’t even gotten up to speed with germ theory.
“It worked for me/my family member/my friend/my pet” is low-quality anecdotal evidence. The same could be said for any number of other medical treatments throughout history that also performed no better than placebo.
“It worked and that’s all I care about” would be fine… except that lending legitimacy to treatments that don’t perform better than placebo isn’t ethical. This is how we end up with homeopaths prescribing magic sugar pills to cancer patients.
“TCM can’t be studied by western reductionist science” is simply an example of special pleading.
“You haven’t studied TCM enough to have an informed opinion about whether it works or not” is mere rhetoric. You don’t have to have a degree in bloodletting to know nonsense when you see it. (By the way, I lived with TCM students back home who actually performed bloodletting during their program…)
By the way, if you thought tainted foods were a big deal in Taiwan, check out this article about adulterated Chinese medicine!
Bottom line: TCM is a bunch of pre-scientific hooey. That doesn’t mean you won’t be able to derive benefit from it… but I still think we should invest more of our time and energy into forms of medicine for which we have better evidence of safety and efficacy and less into stuff that obviously hasn’t kept up with the times (TCM, homeopathy, chiropracty, etc.).
Thanks for all your reply. All your point of view make sense to me. TCM needs to be modernized, renovated and validated.
For the past one hundred years, modern medicine has been developing very fast in both theory and clinical practice because of the modern technology and also because lots of doctors and scientists devoted into this field. As modern medicine now encounter some difficult problem that can’t be solved, more and more doctors and scientists begin to do research on TCM or other traditional medicine. It is the world trend that can’t been ignored. Although it’s a long way to go, nevertheless, I believe one day there will be some progress or breakthrough and there will be a new form of [color=#0000FF]“patient-centered” integrated medicine[/color] that benefit people the most. Let’s wait and see.
I don’t respect Chinese medicine very much but I am sometimes amused when people who are into homeopathic medicine bash Chinese people for eating tiger’s paws or whatever. I figure the tiger’s paws are probably as good or better for you as some of the stuff these homeopathic people take, I mean the paws should have fiber and animal protein in them!
I think it’s more because tigers kind of need their paws. 
This is interesting. I thought it would be the other way around - that they’d have more of a resistance to heat. For instance, I come from a colder country than Taiwan - lets just say that I’m an ice type or a cold type (寒). In Taiwan’s winter, most Taiwanese people are scurrying around with coats, gloves and scarfs, where as I still go around in shorts and t-shirts (the cold isn’t influencing me more - it’s having little effect - it just feels somewhere between cool and warm). However, during the summer/hot period (暑), the heat is super effective at ice/cold types like myself, making me feel weak and lethargic - it pretty much saps my energy. I’m not very good with 火 attacks either - again, that’s because I’m an ice/cold type. Does my explanation make sense?
Apparently, some of the record or words in ancient medicine books are not correct because of lots of reasons, such as incorrect copy by hand writing (they don’t have Xerox). Another example is: some medical books are written in bamboo sticks, and these sticks were put together with lines. These lines were easily eaten by worms or rotten naturally. So there might be some wrong when people try to put them back together. e-museum.com.cn/attach/-1/13 … 285506.jpg However, some medical records may look ridiculous now but it might make sense in their Space-time background.
When we read these ancient books, we tend to analyze whether they make logical sense or not. When I say “logical”, I mean according to TCM theory. (based on the classic “黃帝內經”) This is why I said TCM needs to eliminate the impure and retain the pure. Be careful of some case report. There might be some cases that was cured by weird prescription. Even some of them are protected animals. Luckily, there are other substitutes that has the same effect.
[quote=“Dr Jellyfish”]
This is interesting. I thought it would be the other way around - that they’d have more of a resistance to heat. For instance, I come from a colder country than Taiwan - lets just say that I’m an ice type or a cold type (寒). In Taiwan’s winter, most Taiwanese people are scurrying around with coats, gloves and scarfs, where as I still go around in shorts and t-shirts (the cold isn’t influencing me more - it’s having little effect - it just feels somewhere between cool and warm). However, during the summer/hot period (暑), the heat is super effective at ice/cold types like myself, making me feel weak and lethargic - it pretty much saps my energy. I’m not very good with 火 attacks either - again, that’s because I’m an ice/cold type. Does my explanation make sense?[/quote]
Thanks for your reply, Dr. Jellyfish. When we talk about these factors, we tend to focus on the influence on the body, not only these factors. It’s not that you’re cold because you’re from a cold place and you get used to it. We put emphasis on the body’s reaction. Not every people get affected by the weather because some people are strong (better buffer system), some people are weak. We emphasize on individual differences. If you live in a cold place and the reaction (symptom and sign) to the weather tends to be cold, we said the body constitution is cold. A “cold type” body constitution should have some symptom and signs as follows: fear of cold, prefer warm drinks, cold limbs, pale face and so on. If hot weather makes you feel lethargic, usually it’s because the “Yin” deficiency(There are 5 kinds of TCM body fluid: 津、液、營、血、精 that is related to “Yin陰”), because hot is very harmful to these body fluids according to TCM theory. Thankfully, there’re some Chinese herbs that can supply Yin and clear heat. One of the formula is “白虎湯”(White Tiger decoction), which is composed of four herbs: 石膏、知母、甘草、粳米。 spbcm.cmu.edu.tw/ccmp/d/img-d-photo/d01-09.jpg If you don’t want to take herbal medicine, you could just eat more watermelon, we said it’s the natural form of White Tiger decoction.
[quote=“joey0825”][quote=“Dr Jellyfish”]
This is interesting. I thought it would be the other way around - that they’d have more of a resistance to heat. For instance, I come from a colder country than Taiwan - lets just say that I’m an ice type or a cold type (寒). In Taiwan’s winter, most Taiwanese people are scurrying around with coats, gloves and scarfs, where as I still go around in shorts and t-shirts (the cold isn’t influencing me more - it’s having little effect - it just feels somewhere between cool and warm). However, during the summer/hot period (暑), the heat is super effective at ice/cold types like myself, making me feel weak and lethargic - it pretty much saps my energy. I’m not very good with 火 attacks either - again, that’s because I’m an ice/cold type. Does my explanation make sense?[/quote]
Thanks for your reply, Dr. Jellyfish. When we talk about these factors, we tend to focus on the influence on the body, not only these factors. It’s not that you’re cold because you’re from a cold place and you get used to it. We put emphasis on the body’s reaction. Not every people get affected by the weather because some people are strong (better buffer system), some people are weak. We emphasize on individual differences. If you live in a cold place and the reaction (symptom and sign) to the weather tends to be cold, we said the body constitution is cold. A “cold type” body constitution should have some symptom and signs as follows: fear of cold, prefer warm drinks, cold limbs, pale face and so on. If hot weather makes you feel lethargic, usually it’s because the “Yin” deficiency(There are 5 kinds of TCM body fluid: 津、液、營、血、精 that is related to “Yin陰”), because hot is very harmful to these body fluids according to TCM theory. Thankfully, there’re some Chinese herbs that can supply Yin and clear heat. One of the formula is “白虎湯”(White Tiger decoction), which is composed of four herbs: 石膏、知母、甘草、粳米。 spbcm.cmu.edu.tw/ccmp/d/img-d-photo/d01-09.jpg If you don’t want to take herbal medicine, you could just eat more watermelon, we said it’s the natural form of White Tiger decoction.[/quote]
Ah, I think I see now. The type refers to a weakness, not a resistance. In that case I’d be a hot type. I like watermelon, so next time the temp goes above 25 and I feel miserably hot, I’ll give it a go. Taiwan’s “cold” doesn’t bother me. Taiwan’s winter is typically hotter than the summers I’m used to back home.
Thanks!