Election in Ukraine / bare breast protest

Politics International Politics
1

I have to admit, there are a lot of things about Ukraine I didn’t know. Only recently I have learned it is Europe’s largest country (c’mon, one can overlook that, right?), it would be the geographical center of Europe (OK, now, I really thought that’s somewhere in the Netherlands) and yet the most astonishing fact about the Ukraine is the way the are carrying out their political protest.

The German (political!) SPIEGEL magazine has a nice coverage of that, it may still be intersting even if you cannot read German. For the gents.

NOT SUITABLE FOR WORK

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,676420,00.html Clicko on them images!

Ukraine. Gotta know more about it. If I were their President I’d constantly tease my population with something only to see them protesting. :popcorn:

Ah yes… the reason of the protest is the pro-Russian guy [probably] becoming president. Look at his eyes… I bet he just saw the protest…

2

Well, I suppose it is good that the EU nations have been so active (cough cough) in preventing Ukraine from returning to a Putin-style regime. I mean soft power ala Brussels has been very effective so we should all applaud the bureaucrats of the same from ensuring democratization and economic liberalization… right? This is yet another example of the success of European soft power in a nation so close and so strategic to European interests… right? No? er…

3

The EU may be soft, but not all about Europe is soft. Ups. Sorry.
Nevermind. At least I am looking forward to more protests (seriously, this is the third of that kind which I saw on Spiegel.de - do you now understand why I like the Spiegel so much, Fred?) and … well, the big question is if the Ukraine preserves their democracy. I have my doubts there though. The best course of action would be a Ukraine pointing out their friendship with Russia, having a defense contract with Russia while at the same time co-working with the EU to provide easy access to the Russian market and to Russian factories to Western countries. In this way, they could be rich, fat and secure.

Being their president I would do that. Well, occasionally I’d increase the public transport fee or so. We don’t want the people to be too happy, otherwise… no more protests, right?

4

To which nations is a free and independent Ukraine absolutely crucial to their security? and yet… which actions have been taken to ensure that Ukraine’s reformist government was given support? Perhaps, there is nothing to be done for Ukraine but it strikes me that there was a multi-generational opportunity here and it appears to be getting lost. I would say a failure to see this appears to be the equivalent or worse of pretending that Turkey did not matter or was unacceptable because its population is primarily Muslim… ah well… I am sure that this is all about soft power and I have never quite understood myself how it could be one and all for one’s diplomatic posture… but I am sure that others, including writers at Der Spiegel, can help me out…

5

Sigh, would in deed be sad if all those gorgeous protesters are lost behind an iron curtain.

6

Dammit, I thought it was going to be the prime minister doing a bare breasted protest

for that I would re-elect tony blair and his ilk to drive the iron curtain back!!!

7

Russia is Europe’s largest country (both by population and land area), not the Ukraine. Even if you only look at the European portion of Russia (and forget the part that’s in Asia), it’s still the largest country in Europe (again, by both population and land area).

According to wikipedia:

European Russia: 3.96 million square km, 110 million people.
Ukraine: 603,628 square km, 46 million people.

Also, the geographical centre of Europe is debatable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_of_Europe

8

Well, all jokes aside, this is yet another example of why no one takes Europe as a serious partner anymore. Why would Obama go to join the EU summit in Madrid when all that faces him is a series of “conferences…” that will “discuss issues” and then? Most Americans, including myself, have cultural and civilizational ties to Europe. I expect that only the latter will survive the next decade. As America turns toward the Pacific… will that be good for Europe? who knows but there, too, will be a failure of a strategic nature that, well, no doubt, will be a bare-breasted laughing matter… oh… hahahaha

9

Gosh… We have two critical states to Western security, first and foremost Europe’s:Turkey and Ukraine. Let’s not even talk about Azerbaidzhan. And Europe does what?

10

Jesus christ, fred, a guy posts pictures of tits and you want to talk politics??? What the hell is wrong with you?

11

Sorry MT:

I missed the tits… You are right…

Europe is worth about as much given its whorish prostratation… what is the point of caring about a continent that is “incontinent.” Let’s dissolve NATO now. No point in maintaining the facade… but at least there are tits. While I once believed that we had a shared view of the world from cultural/civilizational sources, I am forced to admit that Europe is no longer worth “saving.” Let it die on the vine. We can visit its monuments much like we visit the Acropolis and Colisseum. Remnants of a dead civilization. Hand me the shovel. The corpse already is too much a stench in my nostrils… Good bye and farewell fair friend… but you are dead… and I no longer mourn you…

12

Fred: I’m not quite where you’re at regarding Europe, but I’m getting very close.

13

But it begs the question, much as I love my home country, its Constitution, its system of government, its wide open space, so much incredible and diverse natural beauty, its melting pot of people and cultures from all over the world, its correspondingly rich art, music and cuisine and so much else, isn’t the US also a crumbling, decaying remnant of what it once was? Financially, isn’t the federal govt and every one of the 50 state’s govt’s totally broke and hasn’t that meant a total decay in the nation’s roads, schools and social services? Haven’t crime, poverty and illiteracy risen in the past couple of decades, and in the past couple of years record numbers of people are broke, out of work, out of luck, walking out on their foreclosed houses, without health insurance, without direction and basically SOL? As I said, I love my country, but I’ve been gone a decade and it’s my understanding it ain’t what it used to be.

14

MT: So, is Asia the new “it” then? Returning to Australia doesn’t appeal to me for the reasons mentioned.

15

No, I guess my point is that the whole world’s in a slump. It seems a little unfair to criticize only Europe on its “state of decay” when we’re several years into a devastating global economic crisis, that has pummeled most of the world. Presumably, though, for much of the world conditions will gradually improve. Of course, I have no idea what fred’s going on about, but that’s a different matter.

16

I think he’s talking about Europe’s slide into geopolitical irrelevance. On the one hand, they kind of bemoan that no one takes them seriously anymore, yet on the other hand, they don’t give anyone any reason to take them seriously anymore.

17

Well, GuyinTaiwan, I believe that you have got it. Ironically, many Germans and French and British have nothing but contempt for the Greeks and Portuguese. They also condemn the Irish, Danish and Dutch on many an occasion for “not getting it.” Well step back a pace and could it not equally be said that the progressive nations of Europe also do not get it if they are not willing to act in their own geostrategic interests? and how else would one describe Ukraine and Turkey except as geostrategic? It reminded me of the massive European protests against US-led actions against Iraq, a nation that matters very little to them while the US matters a great deal and for what? to talk about international law in order to save a career thug? who had done far more to oppress his people than any other dictator in recent memory all while touting the soft power upon which its principles stand? Now, this Yanukovich may turn out to be the best choice… perhaps, he and he only can provide the balancing that is required. What is incredible to me, however, is given the strategic importance of the nation… hell, forget the aid and support…which was and has been in very short supply, what about the prospects of joining the EU as a lifeline to draw in this very important nation? It worked very well for the nations of Central and Eastern Europe. I am afraid, however, that we may be seeing some severe instability in the euro, ironically caused by those nations like Greece that don’t seem to “get it.” This may make Europe even less likely to act in its long-term strategic interests… I guess that will mean more “accommodation” to Russia? especially regarding energy security? Who knows… but whatever happens, please do not couch it in terms involving “principles,” though no doubt a whole series of beloved “conferences” could be held to “discuss” that and to “negotiate” a “framework agreement” to be implemented in a series of “phases.”

18

Fred: I’d say Turkey is a different matter, if only because it would dramatically change Europe’s frontier. Having Turkey in the E.U. would make its borders considerably more porous, not that it couldn’t be argued that Europe’s borders are about as watertight as a fishing net already. Still, I think it’s a difference.

Anyway, yes. Europeans can’t accept that they’ve made this mess for themselves. They created their little cocoon because they smugly thought that by letting the U.S. pick up the tab for wielding a big stick they’d be able to create a little socialist utopia, stop breeding, etc., when all that did was make them soft. Now in every sense, they’re not taken seriously by anyone else and their relative share of everything diminishes by the day. They can’t understand that not everyone is on the same big hippy love in trip that they’ve been on for the past few generations. They find it all terribly outrageous that others could want, or should have, empires, and that politicking should actually exist in the real world outside of their cocktail circuit.

It will be interesting to see whether Europe goes out with a bang or a whimper, but it will go out never the less.

19

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Fred: I’d say Turkey is a different matter, if only because it would dramatically change Europe’s frontier. Having Turkey in the E.U. would make its borders considerably more porous, not that it couldn’t be argued that Europe’s borders are about as watertight as a fishing net already. Still, I think it’s a difference.

Anyway, yes. Europeans can’t accept that they’ve made this mess for themselves. They created their little cocoon because they smugly thought that by letting the U.S. pick up the tab for wielding a big stick they’d be able to create a little socialist utopia, stop breeding, etc., when all that did was make them soft. Now in every sense, they’re not taken seriously by anyone else and their relative share of everything diminishes by the day. They can’t understand that not everyone is on the same big hippy love in trip that they’ve been on for the past few generations. They find it all terribly outrageous that others could want, or should have, empires, and that politicking should actually exist in the real world outside of their cocktail circuit.

It will be interesting to see whether Europe goes out with a bang or a whimper, but it will go out never the less.[/quote]

I disagree that europe let the US have the big stick - european governments were forced through massive debts and near total war caused destruction to collapse onthemselves, they’re actually doing quite well considering.

However, I do agree that letting the Ukraine go is stupid, building very good relations to form a “neutral border” between the empires, maybe, but letting it go back into the Russian centre of influence entirely can only be bad

  1. oil pipelines
  2. grain/food supply
  3. direct border between EU/Russia

have the EU leaders never played risk?!

Then again, I would also like to see Turkey given more than a fingers up - And no adding turkey wouldnt make the borders any weaker than Greece, in fact, pushing turkey into a saudi “shiite alliance” would bring even greater instability to the borders and may lead to losing a “muslim dominated secular democracy”, which would be the biggest issue

20

itakitez: Until when was it true though that Europe was forced into that position? Certainly not for the past few decades. How’s it been funding its social programmes, reduced work weeks and longer holidays and why couldn’t it fund a military instead? Trade-offs to be sure, but surely at least since the early 80s Europe could have played more of a role, although even in Gulf War 1, Europe was having a go. I think this problem actually became far more pronounced from the mid-90s onwards. I think perhaps the beginning of the end was Yugoslavia. The way that played out (with the U.S. having to take the lead) suggested that Europe couldn’t, or perhaps wasn’t willing to, work out fairly minor, local issues. They can’t very well turn around now after decades of trying not to be the big boy(s) and then complain that none of the big boys or up and coming big boys will take them seriously.

I agree with your points about the Ukraine, although the E.U. already shares borders with Russia at Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.

You think Turkey would go the other way if not admitted into the E.U.? I don’t know anything about that.