[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Fred: I’d say Turkey is a different matter, if only because it would dramatically change Europe’s frontier. Having Turkey in the E.U. would make its borders considerably more porous, not that it couldn’t be argued that Europe’s borders are about as watertight as a fishing net already. Still, I think it’s a difference.
Anyway, yes. Europeans can’t accept that they’ve made this mess for themselves. They created their little cocoon because they smugly thought that by letting the U.S. pick up the tab for wielding a big stick they’d be able to create a little socialist utopia, stop breeding, etc., when all that did was make them soft. Now in every sense, they’re not taken seriously by anyone else and their relative share of everything diminishes by the day. They can’t understand that not everyone is on the same big hippy love in trip that they’ve been on for the past few generations. They find it all terribly outrageous that others could want, or should have, empires, and that politicking should actually exist in the real world outside of their cocktail circuit.
It will be interesting to see whether Europe goes out with a bang or a whimper, but it will go out never the less.[/quote]
I disagree that europe let the US have the big stick - european governments were forced through massive debts and near total war caused destruction to collapse onthemselves, they’re actually doing quite well considering.
However, I do agree that letting the Ukraine go is stupid, building very good relations to form a “neutral border” between the empires, maybe, but letting it go back into the Russian centre of influence entirely can only be bad
- oil pipelines
- grain/food supply
- direct border between EU/Russia
have the EU leaders never played risk?!
Then again, I would also like to see Turkey given more than a fingers up - And no adding turkey wouldnt make the borders any weaker than Greece, in fact, pushing turkey into a saudi “shiite alliance” would bring even greater instability to the borders and may lead to losing a “muslim dominated secular democracy”, which would be the biggest issue