The EC is part of the checks and balances those wise men placed in our system.[/quote]
checks and balances between states when they were practically independent entities and needed to be coaxed together. not the situation we are in today.[/quote]
The concern then was that the central government would grow too strong (and tyrannical), not that the states needed to be coaxed to cooperate. That is why the FFs adopted the federal system.
Doing away with the EC will harm the federal system.
[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“The Magnificent Tigerman”]
That brings us back to a question that I asked earlier that you haven’t yet answered:
If a popular election were to replace the EC, why should low population states remain in the Union?[/quote]
the state doesn’t matter as a political entity on a national level. each person in that state is an American same as me and their vote would count no more or less than mine no matter where i lived.[/quote]
So, you really are NOT in favor of the federal system, are you?
I would rather have the freedom to move to a place where the majority of the people held similar values as I without fear that a total majority will impose their values on me.
Because of our federal system, gays are free to move to places that are more open and tolerant to gay issues and religious folk are free to live in states that frown upon such openness. This is what federalism is all about. Its about allowing people at the local level some autonomy in managing their own affiars.
If the will of the simple majority rules, then you can kiss gay rights good-bye (at least per current attitudes). This same rule applies to any set of values. If you think majority rule should be absolute, best hope if it ever comes about you don’t find yourself among the minority.
I am fully in favor of the federal system, with a directly elected president in charge. I don’t see any major changes there besides a straightforward, transparent and fair election system taking the place of an archaic, cumbersome and unfair one.
As I have been stating, a popular election system would harm our federal system.
And can you imagine the possibility for corruption in a popular election? If every single vote counts the same, the temptation to buy and or manufacture votes would be enormous… and challenges to the tallies would be issued in every county…
No thanks. Again, I trust the wisdom of James Madison over the calls for pure democracy.
As I have been stating, a popular election system would harm our federal system.
And can you imagine the possibility for corruption in a popular election? If every single vote counts the same, the temptation to buy and or manufacture votes would be enormous… and challenges to the tallies would be issued in every county…
No thanks. Again, I trust the wisdom of James Madison over the calls for pure democracy.[/quote]
You don’t trust the American people very much. Apparently our federal democracy is unable to handle direct election of the chief executive, a minor change in the interest of transparency and fairness and not anything like “pure democracy.” A sad statement on it then! I should hope our founding fathers had created something more robust than that.
I don’t trust any people very much. Why should I? Ever read about Nazi Germany or the Chinese Cultural Revolution? Our entire system of checks and balances is based upon distrust. I agree.
Our FFs did create something quite robust. The EC has served us well for over 200 years. That’s quite an accomplishment.
You’ll have to forgive me Tigerman if I don’t see how you went from a simple direct democratic election of the president to Nazi Germany much less the cultural revolution. It sounds scary though! i’ll give you credit for that.
I would argue that it has not served us as well as a direct system would have. It may have made sense at the time, but it doesn’t now. A truly robust system should not fear positive change.
No problem. Hitler was elected by a popular vote and the Cultural Revolution provides abundant examples of majority tyranny. Yes, these are scary. I was explaining why I do not trust any people (not just American people).
[quote=“The Magnificent Tigerman”]
And can you imagine the possibility for corruption in a popular election? If every single vote counts the same, the temptation to buy and or manufacture votes would be enormous… [/quote]
Is the possibility not increased in the electoral college system? You only have to buy or manufacture votes in a few swing states. If you want to be corrupt, under EC you can concentrate your resources in specific places and have a greater effect.
I’m enjoying this thread, some very interesting posts. Also I find it interesting that people who are probably for Bush are arguing for EC and those for Kerry are arguing against the EC. In some ways it should be the other way around for the present election as the polls seem to show that Bush holds a greater lead in the country as a whole than he does in the key swing states. The EC at the moment would appear to help Kerry. Still those polls seem a wee bit schizophrenic.
Per my knowledge, Bush leads in popular as well as electoral polls.
However, it isn’t at all surprizing that Republicans favor the EC. I don’t care who the EC favors, I am in principle a Republican. The US was founded as a republic with representative government and a representative democracy (not a pure democracy). The US as established adopted a federalist system in order to safeguard the rights of all peoples (those rights that we deem inalienable) and to do so, a representative government with protection for minorities is necessary. The EC is a vital component of our federal system.
The Dems have been complaining about the EC for years. They use the EC as an excuse for their losses, and in the present election, we can see them complaining about the EC as a preemptive excuse for Kerry’s probable loss in November.
[quote]Indeed I am a citizen of the USA. However, as the USA was established as a republic and as it utilizes a federal system, I am also a citizen of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. A popular vote would just about do away with the federal system that has served the US quite well for the past 200 odd years. I don’t know of any good arguments for doing away with the federal system. Do you?[/quote]I don’t think the electorial college system is needed for a federation. It’s possible to have a popular vote and still be a federation, Russia does for one, how is the president elected in Germany, Rascal ?
But hey, it works most of the time, even when it gives odd results, everyone accepts it. And if a recount is needed, only one state needs a recount, not the whole country.
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”][quote]Indeed I am a citizen of the USA. However, as the USA was established as a republic and as it utilizes a federal system, I am also a citizen of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. A popular vote would just about do away with the federal system that has served the US quite well for the past 200 odd years. I don’t know of any good arguments for doing away with the federal system. Do you?[/quote]I don’t think the electorial college system is needed for a federation. It’s possible to have a popular vote and still be a federation, Russia does for one, how is the president elected in Germany, Rascal ?
But hey, it works most of the time, even when it gives odd results, everyone accepts it. And if a recount is needed, only one state needs a recount, not the whole country.[/quote]
BFM,
The difference between the US and Germany is that the US is a large geographic area with a very diverse population. A pure democracy is most efficient for small homogenous populations located in small geographic areas. So, while a small geographic nation with a small homogenous population can have a federation, or a pure democracy, a large geographic nation with a very diverse population would do much better to adopt a federal system that uses an EC style of voting.
I’m not certain yet that Russia’s federation works all that well.
(Fwooshp). Thanks, you :loco: :wanker:, I just sprayed Diet Coke all over my keyboard and monitor. :fume:
Russia, a “federation”? Russia is still a kleptocracy with a state-controlled press and a population which has essentially no real choice beyond whomever the boss hand-picks for a successor.
I suppose you think that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is really a democracy, too?
[quote=“Tigerman”]a large geographic nation with a very diverse population would do much better to adopt a federal system that uses an EC style of voting.[/quote]That’s what I was thinking, splitting it up into more managable chunks or states.quote=“MaPoSquid”. Thanks, you :loco: :wanker:, I just sprayed Diet Coke all over my keyboard and monitor. :fume:
Russia, a “federation”? Russia is still a kleptocracy with a state-controlled press and a population which has essentially no real choice beyond whomever the boss hand-picks for a successor.
I suppose you think that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is really a democracy, too?[/quote]Good Point, I couldn’t think of another democratic federal republic nation that I know how how the president is elected (At least Russia has the word “Federation” in its name )would you care to tell me if the president of somewhere like Germany is elected by populat vote ?
switzerland is a confederation with a much more limited central government. they don’t directly elect their president, however.
canada, australia, and germany are also federations which resemble the us system, but they are all of the parlimentary model where the prime minister/chancellor is not directly elected.
so far it seems like the us is an anomaly in that it is a federal government which actually allows direct election of the chief executive.
As for the fears of “mob rule”, do you think the 17th amendment established in 1913 should be repealed? It seems that voters electing Senators, instead of the state legislatures, was a much more drastic change than scrapping the electoral college would be. Yet the U.S. somehow has survived nearly a century of mob rule in the Senate.
)would you care to tell me if the president of somewhere like Germany is elected by populat vote ?