Ma was stated as saying, “I have no doubt that it can bring Taipei to the world and bring the world to Taipei.”
Well, go to this Web site and have a good laugh. You can see that Ma made no mistake in his words.
They built a multi-billion dollar tower complex, but couldn’t even pay a native English speaker NT$500 (about US$15) to edit the text for worldwide promotion.
This is so typical of the Taiwanese. They bring down enitre buildings (like the burnt-out building in the Xizhi Acer complex) by going cheap on items costing pennies compared to the entire investment itself. Just like with the burnt-out Xizhi building when they went cheap by taking out the fire walls, I wonder what “surprise” Taipei 101 holds.
Mark my words. There is a surprise waiting, and not because an “accident” or “act of god” or “uncalculated risk” … It will be because of a deliberate decision to “go cheap” on the saftey aspects of the building.
You can build a gleaming tower in one year, but you can’t change thousands of years of culture in one year.
They wouldn’t do it for free, either. I was working for Ogilvy & Mather, who was handling the account at the time. I offered to clean up all of the mistakes on the website for free, and they didn’t even reply. The people in charge of the PR for 101 are simply clueless. Even though they hired Ogilvy, they never listened to any advice.
There are three fundamental “issues” with the Taiwanese that I’ve noticed when working in copyediting/marketing/techncial writing/etc. in tech companies here:
They think they understand everyone else in the world, but no one understands them. This kind of naieve bravado usually ends up with some laoban showing off how he can write English just as good as any other foreigner.
Taiwanese are cheap and pride themselves in being cheap. Even if you offer them quality at no cost (free), they can’t process it mentally. I’ve offered to pay extra to have a job done right at the motorbike repair shop. However, each time the laoban explains to me how he can do it cheaper … thus talking himself out of more profit for himself. Figure that one out.
Their business models don’t actually rely on good copyediting or slick markeitng. It comes a lot from the OEM background culture of Taiwan. So, as much as I complain or make fun of it, I can now wholeheartedly understand why Taiwanese invest so little in decent promotion: Marketing is a long-term investment that pays off in abstract ways, with no immediate links to ballance sheet assets. Furthermore, it is an expense on the income statement, not an asset to be amoritized/expensed over the life of related revenues. Generally, Chinese don’t make long-term capital investments. It is still very much a show-me-the-money culture. “Investment” requires a culture/society that is used to taking risks and calculating that risk over the long-term. That’s why there are so few world-class brands from Taiwan: It takes years of careful investment and patience to build brands. Taiwanese are more interested in the quick payoff of copying and doing ‘this’ today and ‘that’ tomorrow. This in iteslf is a competitive advantage. If Taiwanese were so interested in good copyediting and markeitng and branding, then they would loose their current strengths in being quick and nible.
[quote=“babelfish”]It’s worrisome that people would attach such a low value to quality copy editing.
Is there an association that could provide guidelines for freelance copy editors? 500 NT an hour seems rather low, but for an entire website?[/quote]
OK … NT$1000. Actually, I do place a high value on it, BUT as I mentioned above, the Taiwanese don’t, so you have to be paid they way they want to pay you.
And for NT$500, I would look at all the text in about 30 minutes only making very quick edits to the GROSS errors … that’s all this site really needed to be ‘acceptable’. It didn’t actualy need to be slick copy. Just good enough not be downright ‘cute’ …
My favorite part of the site is where it talked about an outdoor area where you could ‘do nothing’ … What a benefit! I can go and DO NOTHING.
What you’re saying, Jeremy, is a more or less apt generalization. What I find worrisome is that copy editors themselves might put a low value on what they do.
There are a growing number of Taiwanese companies and organizations that now subscribe to notions such as branding … or at least twig on to the fact that they look ridiculous when their copy is in Chinglish (or something close to it).
People with copy editing skills shouldn’t sell themselves short, otherwise these companies will get a distorted idea of the (low) value of the service they’re getting.
Have to agree with all that’s been said. Incredible to see the standard of English equity research being spewed out by the big FHCs. As far as I know most don’t have native speaking editors. (I have to read this crap from time to time!) Now these FHCs have seen the laws concerning investment by foreigners in Taiwan’s markets eased considerably and yet stil they haven’t bothered to up their standard. That’s not a long-term stuff up that’s right here right now.
Babelfish, agree with your post but I think the realisation is only occurrring in the very large corporations, the little chaps don’t seem to understand just how bad an impression shoddy English makes on an international audience. Hard to make inroads, even if your product is top notch, if the publicity piece is total shite.
Further to that, hasn’t Mayor Ma reead the thing? Isn’t his English supposed to be good?
Quite startled by Poagao’s tale re - Ogilvy and Mather.
I don’t want to shock you guys, but at least some of this stuff is actually copy edited by native English speakers. I know one of the vice presidents at O&M and her husband has told me repeatedly that I don’t want to apply to be a copy editor there. The pay is lousy and you need to be able to read Chinese well. The other implication being that most people who get that job are not really editors, but students of the language who take the job for a while to supplement their income (Nothing against Poagao; maybe he is a professional editor).
Having said that, the fact is that English teachers are not editors. I spoke to some of the CETRA people at the 2003 Taiwan Business Alliance Conference about the appalling English at the venue and was informed that some of it HAD been “corrected” by native speakers of English.
I agree with what has been said previously, but wanted to add that the problem can also arise when incompetent foreigners attempt to be editors.
Well, not all taiwanese bosses are like that. I know of one who when asked (by me) why he spent so much on marketing. He said that he wanted to build an image of his company.
I think this is a very astute observation (as opposed to that put forth countless times by people who think poor copy-editing somehow shows Taiwanese are inherently incompetent. I guess Taiwan was lucky to have had that “economic miracle,” what with all that bad copy-editing, right?).
You mean Taiwanese or foreign copy editors put a low value on what they do?
I see a lot of crap that has supposedly been “edited” by foreigners (I’m not only talking about newspapers and magazines, but also about material at trade shows, etc). Being able to speak English hardly means being able to write it and edit it, yet some foreigners evidently think it does (as do some who do the hiring at local English-language newspapers). I’m not criticizing people who become copy editors and who, under the tutelage of, say Larry Eyton, perfect the craft (I’m sure Wolf can vouch for this). I’m talking about people who’ve never even opened or have an intention of opening a style guide (or dictionary) and instead go on what “feels right,” supremely confident that they can edit the content of a brochure on something like TFT-LCDs without having any idea about the product.
As for the case Poagao described, regarding Taipei 101 not taking advantage of free copy editing from Ogilvy and Mather, that is a shame.
The guy before me didn’t even speak Chinese, much less read it. When I arrived they knew I could read and speak it, but I refused to do translation since I wasn’t hired to be a translator, nor were they paying me enough for that kind of thing. The pay does suck for a full-time job, but if you’re comfortable doing other work at their office there’s plenty of time to do it along with a relatively nice working environment. The guy after me was told he would have to edit and translate, all for the pittance of a salary (I got 50k, btw, though they may have paid him even less), and he quit after a short time due to the pressure. I don’t know how they manage to get people to do that much work for so little money; I guess they manage to dazzle them with O&M’s international reputation, even though the person in the position of editor (everyone there refers to the editor as “English teacher”, which should give you a clue) has little chance of advancement in the company.
I think this is a very astute observation (as opposed to that put forth countless times by people who think poor copy-editing somehow shows Taiwanese are inherently incompetent. I guess Taiwan was lucky to have had that "economic miracle," what with all that bad copy-editing, right?).
I agree on the past strengths but things are changing rather swiftly are they not? I think the OEM acceptance of tardy English has spilled over into other sectors where it is absolutely inappropriate. Taipei 101 is a good example. Actually I’m having this issue out with my brother in law at the moment. He’s currently trying to attract more orders from US and Europe, but with an atrocious English website and correspondence.
I agree that being a native English speaker hardly qualifies one to call themselves editors. Frankly I see the desire by many to flee English teaching as undercutting professional editing standards and salaries. The China Post is a very good example. Granted many have graduated from these editing cram schools with flying colours.
I also see this, but would definately stress the ‘supposedly.’
I work in Taiwanese advertising company. I see a lot of what I write come back to me with “corrections” from such-and-such’s company’s boss’s daughter-who-has-been-studying-in-England. I take this with a grain of salt and where her changes make sense and aren’t flat out wrong, I make the changes. Often I will get it back again with more “corrections,” where again they’ve changed my text back to a state where it is unintelligable. This goes around in circles a few times until I tire of it and confront my boss with the daughter’s piss-poor English and tell her that we are wasting our time. The first time this happened, I had to get on the phone with the daughter and explain why the “corrections” she made were inappropriate. Needless to say this took ages as she interjected with; “But my English teacher taught me that…” I asked her to imagine me “correcting” her Chinese and she seemed to understand the point a little, but was still a little upset that she wasn’t as “fluent” in English as she thought. Now I never bother with the phone calls to daughters-of-bosses.
Other times a company will take something I’ve written for them, make “corrections,” and go to print without me seeing the final. Over the years I’ve minimized the possibilities of this stuff happening by making it very clear to everyone in the company that a final hard-copy must be seen by me for a final check. It was slow battle getting them to adapt their proccess to allow me that final luxury. Their reluctance to heed my advice on the matter is just one of those things that will always be a source of frustration to people who would like to see improvements or contribute something to a company in Taiwan.
I guess my point is that often someone with competent English may have edited something, only to have it butchered by someone who “knows better.” I’m sure this is common experience for many who work in this field.
A story to confirm someone else’s point that companies will invest tons in a product, and then skimp on something crucial just to save some bucks. When I first came to Taiwan I was approached by a well-known computer manufacturing company to write supporting documentation for some product (a RAID storage system, whatever the fug that is) as they didn’t have anyone else. I told them I was complete ignoramus to all things computer besides Microsoft Word. This didn’t seem to dissuade them in the least as they no doubt felt they could pay me less than someone who knew what they were doing. In the end it took me a lot longer to do it, so in the end they probably paid me only slightly below what they would have paid someone who knew what they were doing, and they ended up with something that made little-to-no sense. I had no way of knowing. I’m sure that given the opportunity, they would do it on the cheap again. Go figure .
The first time this happened, I had to get on the phone with the daughter and explain why the “corrections” she made were inappropriate. Needless to say this took ages as she interjected with; “But my English teacher taught me that…” I asked her to imagine me “correcting” her Chinese and she seemed to understand the point a little, but was still a little upset that she wasn’t as “fluent” in English as she thought.[/quote]
At least she understood a little. I work for a manufacturing company in Guangdong. I have noticed the same mentality towards editing/translating/language in both Taiwanese and mainlanders. Our company is Hong Kong based. Most of the Hong Kong employees write emails in English, or I should say Chinglish. They do this because Hong Kong people are generally no good at typing Chinese. The grammar ranges from excellent (but easily recognized as something written by a non-native speaker) to barely understandable. No big deal, though. It
The publishing company I just “retired” from is notorious for its mistakes. The English editor, not me, is quite competent but she rarely gets to read anything after the first draft.
I remember once she consulted with me on using “the” in a sentence that was going to appear on a banner over a party scene. After some time we both agreed that “the” was appropriate but only in the context of the illustration. If the sentence was used as a caption to the entire illustration, “the” would sound odd.
We stressed this to the manager. No need to guess what happened. They used the sentenc in the wrong context and it of course reads oddly.
One time we found that they had sent an early version of a text to the printers.
Other problems we’ve had are with the senior Chinese writers bringing material to be proofread and then erasing corrections before it goes to the boss. Or the boss refusing to accept corrections on updates of the books, as it would embarrass the company. It’s either get it all right the first time or just pretend from then on out.
The best excuse was from one senior writer who always told us that the material had been recorded already so we couldn’t make the corrections we wanted now. We’d have to wait for the next edition. We found out later, after she quit, that the material had never been recorded!
That said, native speakers can be a pain in the ass, too, correctly things that don’t need to be, trusting style manuals as if they were the word of God, insisting on formal constructions when you are working on beginner ESL material, and in general having a wooden ear.
50 guanxi to anyone who can explain, and cite a credible source, the difference between “point to” and point at."
Muzha Man, my other job is in publishing (sort of - if you can call it that) as well. Our situation is a little different. We get highschool university students who are studying English to do the translations (cheap cheap cheap). Then get foreign editors in Taipei and the U.S. to do their best to try and make something that is understandable to a native speaker. Forget about it actually representing what was said in the Japanese or Chinese original. No time to waste or money to spare, just make it understandable (artistic liberties are a must). Usually you go through a file once, ironing out as many mistakes as you can, making sure the translator spells the names the same way throughout the text, rewriting whole sections… you know, editor stuff. And then… you probablly will never see it again. Maybe another editor will look it over maybe they won’t. Maybe another editor will look it over and make some improvements, but maybe the Taipei staff that takes care of the design will decide to use the old file. I don’t hear boo until an already printed edition that is for sale in the U.S. is plopped down on my desk so that I can edit it for a second-edition printing. Second-edition!!! I just shake my head as I read through the first-edition print thinking; Why in the hell would anyone buy this book?! And how are they able to make a second-print? How does this company survive?
But then I think; “Bettter not rock the boat, don’t get angy or start lecturing, keep my head low.” And try to enjoy my experience of immersing myself in the local working culture of oblivious detatchment from any pretense of quality or merit in my company’s product. I make some tea, smoke a ciggerette. Total oneness and at peace.
Taipei Financial Center will become the new landmark of Taipei City and a world renowned building
From the top level to look around
Other than the bustling Taipei streets
The green mountains surrounding Taipei is the more intimate scenery
Contiguous mountain and the winding Tamsui River to the sea
Extends the boundary of Taipei
And surprise the viewers of the natural beauty of Formosa Island[/quote] tfc101.com.tw/english/taipei … /bel01.htm
Taipei Financial Center will become the new landmark of Taipei City and a world renowned building
From the top level to look around
Other than the bustling Taipei streets
The green mountains surrounding Taipei is the more intimate scenery
Contiguous mountain and the winding Tamsui (Danshui) River to the sea
Extends the boundary of Taipei
And surprise the viewers of the natural beauty of Formosa Island[/quote] tfc101.com.tw/English/Taipei … /bel01.htm[/quote]
Hey, did they steal that from the side of a scooter? :shock:
[quote=“jeremy”]There are three fundamental “issues” with the Taiwanese that I’ve noticed
They think they understand everyone else in the world, but no one understands them. This kind of naieve bravado usually ends up with some laoban showing off how he can write English just as good as any other foreigner.
Their business models don’t actually rely on good copyediting or slick markeitng. It comes a lot from the OEM background culture of Taiwan.[/quote]
agreed Jeremy…
Taipei 101 website… the dolts… :?
I work in the bicycle industry here in Taiwan, and as a whole it is an industry that like many others on this island is primarily OEM based, but unlike many others, the major foreign markets are almost exclusively English speaking countries (N.America, Europe, Autralia/NZ) with the notable exception of Japan, but anyway… our company does OEM production of complete bikes, from high end aero-industry alloy frame full suspension MTBs, to steel kids bikes, hence we have a lot of suppliers in Taiwan/China and good relations with many other companies in the industry…
so far this year, for work purposes i must have been to visit well over 50 companies in Taiwan and China, all of whom cater directly to said foreign markets, and many of whom do active marketing and branding of their OEM products in foreign countries, and almost without exception their English standards are laughable… they have no conception of the western consumer’s mind set with regards to bad English, good marketing and brand building, none… it never crosses their mind that they are shooting themselves in the foot with their ignorance of western the mind set, particularly in regards to English standards… the notable exceptions are the companies who are forward thinking enough to relinquish the linear “Taiwanese only” top down managerial system and allow westerners or people who actually understand western market demands and principals, into the higher level managment positions… i can tell companies that have done this, from those that haven’t just by looking at their catalogue, and i have no doubt, their balance sheet too … Taiwanese laobans and managers are masters of OEM production businesses, and fairly adept at running domestic goods and services enterprises too, but the second a company goes international, the vast majority of bungling Taiwanese/Chinese managers, laobans and businesses become way out of their depth, floundering in their own incompetance and ignorance…
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