English teachers thought of as professional drop outs

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
21

Rant on
Come on guys this is not Unique to Taiwan. In the UK (And I suspect the US) teachers in general are viewed as losers. “If you can do, if you can’t teach” is the old mantra. This is not new, teachers are seen as unproductive (I know its not fair) they do not manufacture, or deliver a service that is seen as tangible. How are they measured in terms of success.

Given this view of a profession how can you possibly justify 2-3 times the income of a dedicated local professional?

On the flip side, and just so you don’t think I am teacher bashing. I have a career that I love but fully appreciate the fact that I would not be doing what I am in the UK or US as there would be too much competition. In “professional” circles there is the old joke about “FILTH” (Failed in London Try Hong Kong) and the mind set is true. As a Westerner you get given more opportunity than a local in any of the Asian markets. This gives you experience that allows you to take on more challenging opportunities and so it cycles.

I guess my point is, we are all priviledged to be here whether that be financial gains, or more time off, and Teaching is not respected anywhere (except maybe in Vietnam).
Rant Off

22

i was reading an asian american forum about the double standard of asian americans. AAs think it’s okay for them to go west, but not okay for you to go east. anybody going west is okay. anybody going east is a loser. anyone who likes blondes is okay. anyone who likes asian girls has rice fever and is a pervert.

so anyone who likes blondes is a swede freak right?

23

That’s ridiculous. The only possible motivation a human being can have is job success? :loco: How pathetic.

I came here because I love studying Chinese, love being in foreign cultures, love warmer weather, love Chinese food, and enjoy teaching. I could make as much or more money back home, but my life wouldn’t be as rich and fulfilling.

24

That’s ridiculous. The only possible motivation a human being can have is job success? :loco: How pathetic.

I came here because I love studying Chinese, love being in foreign cultures, love warmer weather, love Chinese food, and enjoy teaching. I could make as much or more money back home, but my life wouldn’t be as rich and fulfilling.[/quote]

…and if that warrent for your arrest would expire… :smiling_imp:

25

I can’t help but feel slightly irritated at the assumption that we come here to teach English because we can’t get a good job at home. Many of us came after university… some to pay off student loans, or like myself, following my mother’s advice of not being bogged down by car and morgage payments at 23… or be rent poor living in the Bay Area. I had a great job when I finished school and I enjoyed it for a year. But I felt that if I had stayed at that job, or any job that was on a “career path,” I would have been limiting my abilities to go and see a bit of the world.

I too came with the intention of only staying a year but I really love what I do and I work damn hard. I know teaching English in Taiwan will have to come to an end before I’m 30, but not all of us have wasted our time here getting wasted all the time and making a gong show out of our classrooms. I work with the same integrity and ethics as I would at home. I haven’t ever broken a contract and frankly, the only asshole bosses I’ve worked for have both been foreigners (who both have screwed their Taiwanese partner royally… the latest to the tune of 8million NT dollars). I have never met any of these crack head English teachers that give us all a bad name. Everyone I know works hard, takes pride in their classes and students, and are loyal to the bone to their schools.

And my reasons for staying as long as I have piggyback on the above poster… I love learning Chinese and being in a different culture. We only have one life folks and we should stick with what flips our skirts… as much as I want to start living back home and am working towards making that a viable and comfortable option, I fear it will be dreadfully boring.

26

:laughing: :bravo:
Now you know why I grew a beard, huh? :smiley:

27

[quote=“bushibanned”]I can’t help but feel slightly irritated at the assumption that we come here to teach English because we can’t get a good job at home. Many of us came after university… some to pay off student loans, or like myself, following my mother’s advice of not being bogged down by car and morgage payments at 23… or be rent poor living in the Bay Area. I had a great job when I finished school and I enjoyed it for a year. But I felt that if I had stayed at that job, or any job that was on a “career path,” I would have been limiting my abilities to go and see a bit of the world.

I too came with the intention of only staying a year but I really love what I do and I work damn hard. I know teaching English in Taiwan will have to come to an end before I’m 30, but not all of us have wasted our time here getting wasted all the time and making a gong show out of our classrooms. I work with the same integrity and ethics as I would at home. I haven’t ever broken a contract and frankly, the only asshole bosses I’ve worked for have both been foreigners (who both have screwed their Taiwanese partner royally… the latest to the tune of 8million NT dollars). I have never met any of these crack head English teachers that give us all a bad name. Everyone I know works hard, takes pride in their classes and students, and are loyal to the bone to their schools.

And my reasons for staying as long as I have piggyback on the above poster… I love learning Chinese and being in a different culture. We only have one life folks and we should stick with what flips our skirts… as much as I want to start living back home and am working towards making that a viable and comfortable option, I fear it will be dreadfully boring.[/quote]

A well founded fear, I’m afraid to admit. The mortgage and car payment suck. You go on grrrl, and enjoy yo self, we all grow up far too quickly.

Bodo

28

I don’t think most Taiwanese ‘look down on’ English teachers. Younger English teachers are understood to be having an adventure for a few years in a foreign country–something many Taiwanese would like to be doing themselves. Most people think English teachers make pretty good money and wish they could do something as ‘easy’ and lucrative. And above all, the Taiwanese, I believe, tend to judge people as individuals, not members of groups once they get to know them. This whole ‘English teachers’ debate has much more to do with social status in some sections of the foreign community than it does with how the Taiwanese view us.

29

my 2 pesetas:

The crowd I associate with is pretty much all Taiwanese/Chinese folks. Probably a lot older that the norm for the folks on this board. In the 35 - 84 yr old range. Yes…two of the dudes are 84 (b’days within 4 days of each other and both are still active shit-kickers) and their wives and girlffriends. They are active professionals, business owners/managers and educational professionals(college and one or two vocational school/high school folks). Most are active in their businesses, some are retired, some have handed over active management to their children or others at their businesses. Just some background.
I have been hanging with this group for 2 + years now and they give me a lot of insight into “things Taiwanese” from some good perspectives.

Re:“English teachers” here on Taiwan I have heard both the good and the bad from them.
They mostly all have a good opinion of teachers in general - both Chinese, Taiwanese and those who come to the island and fill the ‘teacher’ position. I think this is a traditional Chinese thing with them.
Almost all of them have had experience with import “English teachers.” Most with their children. Some with their businesses hiring for some employees. And some with private lessons for themselves.
All viewed it a something they were glad it was available. Very few, if any, negative comments from their experiences.
Now the other side of the story.
Almost all, when pressed after a few glasses of wine or so, wished that the “import teachers” were more professional in their conduct, appearance and actions here on the island. Their words - not mine. And I know, this is coming from an older generation of what would be termed ‘professional’ peoples.
They voiced the opinion that these “teachers” were here working with their (in a collective sense) children, making damn good money and not giving their children a good role model. Their words – not mine.
I did mention that the best role models were those of the parents. This was understood, but countered with the mention of the high place teachers held in the traditional Chinese scheme of things. I have heard this bedore; but frankly I have seen some dipshits at the young Cowboys school, so I have my questions about this also.
This group also includes several active and retired college professors.
Just my observations from a select, and probably atypical, group.
No outright hostility or bad-mouthing of the “import teachers.” More of a ‘resigned tolerance’ of the changing of things on the island.

By the way…none have expressed the opinion that locals could do the job as well as the “imports.” I found this rather surprising.

30

[quote=“derek1978”]The lowly profession of teaching English in Taiwan, is it really looked upon as being lowly? Many Taiwanese I have talked to have the same conclusion. Set aside for the moment the fact that many and most English teachers on this little rock make 2 to 3 times the average salary of a University graduate here in Taiwan. I’m just talking about the status symbol. Apparently, many Taiwanese view foreign English teachers as people who could not cut it in their own country. A professional flounder, a drop out form that great rat race for fortune and glory, and as such isn’t really qualified to be considered a professional at all.

My GF doesn’t mind at all, given the salary potential (I already make 2 times what she makes and work fewer hours than her). But she did confirm what I was told by others. We come and educate their children, they pay us loads to do it, and yet we are looked upon as being people who couldn’t make the grade back home.
Do you honestly think that the average Taiwanese thinks of the foreign English teacher this way?[/quote]

Rant on

I find it absolutely incredible that people could hold this point of view YET they hire people who “couldn’t make the grade back home”; YET they put their kids in class and pay thousands each month for tuition by those who “couldn’t make the grade back home”.

My point of view: If the locals are so fucking good, why do they need foreign English teachers who “could’t make the grade back home”? Are they stupid or what? Who, in their right minds, would hire people who “couldn’t make the grade back home”?

I’m not a teacher, but I’ll tell you what: The same bitching and moaning is going on in the Science Park here in Hsinchu. Some foreign engineers are paid in the region of NT$250,000 per month + a NT$50,000 housing subsidy to take care of things that all the brilliant, highly qualified, local engineers can’t do or are either too lazy or too stupid to do.

And you know what? Looking at the idiocity in the Science Park by Phd-flaunting local engineers I SHALL HAVE A JOB FOR LIFE and so I guess will ALL THE ENGLISH teachers.

Wasn’t is Confucious who said “If a man is hungry, don’t give him a fish; instead, teach him how to fish”? I’m just wondering what happened to this bit of wisdom?

It looks like we will have to give them fish for a very long time because they simply can’t be taught how to fish.

If the complaints and concers are indeed true, then why don’t the local employers take a serious look at their recruitment process and who they hire? Or, is it perhaps a case of them hiring those “who couldn’t make it back home” because they are cheaper? Penny wise… pound foolish? Sounds about right to me!

Rant off

31

People like to make cheap shots at other people. That’s all.
The guy who lent me his wife’s Porsche and his maid service weekend villa somewhere in the New Territories a few years back used to describe himself as FILTH (Failed in London, Try Hong Kong).
SOMEONE was laughing about this and I don’t think it was the sad sacks he left behind on the station platform in the cold grey London bedroom community waiting for the 7:45 a.m. to Paddington.

32

[quote=“derek1978”]The lowly profession of teaching English in Taiwan, is it really looked upon as being lowly? Many Taiwanese I have talked to have the same conclusion. Set aside for the moment the fact that many and most English teachers on this little rock make 2 to 3 times the average salary of a University graduate here in Taiwan. I’m just talking about the status symbol. Apparently, many Taiwanese view foreign English teachers as people who could not cut it in their own country. A professional flounder, a drop out form that great rat race for fortune and glory, and as such isn’t really qualified to be considered a professional at all.

My GF doesn’t mind at all, given the salary potential (I already make 2 times what she makes and work fewer hours than her). But she did confirm what I was told by others. We come and educate their children, they pay us loads to do it, and yet we are looked upon as being people who couldn’t make the grade back home.

Do you honestly think that the average Taiwanese thinks of the foreign English teacher this way?[/quote]

Absolutely I believe many do feel this way. For the most part it is the best way for them to handle it and save face. It is so much easier to shit on us than to examine what it is about their society that creates the situation in which we can earn so much more than them.

Can anybody say reverse racists? In a cultured so completely obsessed with status and face it is necessary to create a thousand ways to explain or justify why you are better than that guy.
How many times have you heard one Taiwanese person shit on another for being dark skinned? When they treat each other so poorly why should we expect to be treated any better?

33

This whole debate is top class. The Taiwanese really are doughnuts for this whole situation.

  1. What do local people want? They want to be rich. Well, more importantly, they want their children to be rich.

For some unknown reason they think learning English is a practical solution. The globe is shrinking, markets merge etc. Hello? Whilst the rest of the world now struggles to learn Manadarin, you guys are trying to learn English. What for? So one day you can say ‘Seben hundree fotee ay dorra,’ when you are serving me in 7-11, even though I clearly spoke to you in Mandarin? Spend more time on ‘business skills’ and less time on artsy crap like learning a pointless second language.

  1. Foreign teachers are worthless. Well, this is the greatest laugh of all time. If someone told me I could go to Asia and do a job I wasn’t qualified for, but that I’d be paid handsomely for, I’d go. ‘Come to Singapore and be a vet!’ ‘Come to India and be an aeroplane pilot.’ So in Taiwan they set up teaching jobs which are well paid and require little skill. WHY? Cos there is a need for it, and you simply cant expect the cream of British/American/kiwi (wherever) to drop what they are doing at home and go to Taiwan. Gary Lager is the best they can hope for, and people still think they want this. They want their kids to speak English and have a ‘white’ (sorry to think that) teacher. So of course, whitey earns more, cos whitey is essentially the only one who draws students to the school. The local teachers may be super excellent at their job but guess what, they are in over supply and they don’t put bums on seats. Money talks in Taiwan.

So there we have it, in essence. Parents want their kids speaking English, schools make money from this but can’t expect the best. Salaries are high to try and prevent movement of labour? I think it’s more about status. I think local teachers are jealous over money cos they ‘aren’t special enough’ (perceived by parents and schools) to put bums on seats regardless of how great they are. Whitey continues to get drunk and pick up his pay checks. And why shouldn’t he? Is it his fault the parents want to be narrow minded?

I hate the drunk teacher, and I hate the pushy parent equally. But in my mind the drunk is making out as a consequence of the parents greed. They parents, don’t forget, continually complain about Whitey, even though he is the reason they chose that school.

34

[quote]It is so much easier to shit on us than to examine what it is about their society that creates the situation in which we can earn so much more than them.
[/quote]

There are so many wrong things about that statement, I don’t know where to start. The overwhelming reason why we earn more as English teachers is because there are so few of us relative to market demand. The Taiwanese understand that better than anybody and clearly better than you. You are being shat on, it’s true, but I trully doubt you know where it is raining from. I don’t mean that to be a slight on you personally.

This just feeds people’s prejudice, but it’s really a big, “So what!”

I don’t think you can use your criteria to judge the reponsibility or otherwise of a teacher in the classroom to their job. It is the sort of judgemental attitude that makes sense to Mormans living in Salt Lake City, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me and it doesn’t mean that a teacher is irresponsible, ill prepared or incapable.

“It doesn’t put one in the right frame of mind to teach children.” How would you know that?

Tom, you come up with some crap at times, but you’ve clearly out done yourself this time. Who are you to judge what the Chinese should or shouldn’t learn or whether or not English is of value to anybody? Just because you are not mature or patient enough to handle someone’s crappy English, or feel some how slighted because somebody took an opportunity to try their English out on you, hardly seems to justify the remainder of your nonsense.

Like this:

[quote]I hate the drunk teacher, and I hate the pushy parent equally. But in my mind the drunk is making out as a consequence of the parents greed. They parents, don’t forget, continually complain about Whitey, even though he is the reason they chose that school.
[/quote]

35

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]
They voiced the opinion that these “teachers” were here working with their (in a collective sense) children, making damn good money and not giving their children a good role model. Their words – not mine.
I did mention that the best role models were those of the parents. This was understood, but countered with the mention of the high place teachers held in the traditional Chinese scheme of things. I have heard this bedore; but frankly I have seen some dipshits at the young Cowboys school, so I have my questions about this also.
This group also includes several active and retired college professors.
Just my observations from a select, and probably atypical, group.
No outright hostility or bad-mouthing of the “import teachers.” More of a ‘resigned tolerance’ of the changing of things on the island.[/quote]

This is probably the most realistic post here. This is true, that teachers are one of the best role models as these children spend about 8 to 10 hours a day around them. Aside from me, most people have a teacher who they remember that has made a huge impact or steered them toward a better life. Teachers are the salt of the earth.

36

[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]
They voiced the opinion that these “teachers” were here working with their (in a collective sense) children, making damn good money and not giving their children a good role model. Their words – not mine.
I did mention that the best role models were those of the parents. This was understood, but countered with the mention of the high place teachers held in the traditional Chinese scheme of things. I have heard this before; but frankly I have seen some dipshits at the young Cowboys school, so I have my questions about this also.
This group also includes several active and retired college professors.
Just my observations from a select, and probably atypical, group.
No outright hostility or bad-mouthing of the “import teachers.” More of a ‘resigned tolerance’ of the changing of things on the island.[/quote]

This is probably the most realistic post here. This is true, that teachers are one of the best role models as these children spend about 8 to 10 hours a day around them. Aside from me, most people have a teacher who they remember that has made a huge impact or steered them toward a better life. Teachers are the salt of the earth.[/quote]
Namma,
TC didn’t say in his post that English teachers are the “BEST” role models or even “one” of the best roles models, but simply that the culture in Taiwan is such that teachers are respected and looked to as role models simply for cultural reasons/history NOT because they ARE good role models necessarily. Now in your case, I am positive that they have good reason to look to you as a role model. You seem to me to care about your students and your responsibilities as a teacher. :smiley:

[color=yellow]
Although, you could work on your spelling a little, and be an even better role model for students learning English.
[/color]

Bodo

37

I really hope you are being sarcastic…

Lets see, the reason that I am moving to taiwan on friday to teach english is because I want to live in a different culture, prove to myself I can hack it, do my best to learn Mandarin, try teaching in between undergrad and grad school, I love the food etc. I view this as a great experience and think you are completely full of shit. How is moving to a foreign country for a year/couple years “sacrificing a dental career”?? And maybe not everyone wants to go to lawschool/med school right out of college or at all because they actually want to experience life.

Also, why do some of you seem so cynical? Was that your cause of going to Taiwan or the result of living there??? Kinda freaks me out a bit hearing some of you being so bitter and cynical on here.

38

You’re totally right Morrow. Freaks me out too, but I’ve lived here for 13 years and don’t harbor any of the above views. My experience is that the Taiwanese are very respectful of you as an English teacher. They pretty much take you as you are and are appreciative of your efforts. I’ve heard all the above crap from foreigners trying to justify there inability to cope with cultural difference, longing for home, or whatever bit of pop phsycology best describes it. It’s an aberration.

39

[quote=“Fox”][quote]It is so much easier to shit on us than to examine what it is about their society that creates the situation in which we can earn so much more than them.
[/quote]

There are so many wrong things about that statement, I don’t know where to start. The overwhelming reason why we earn more as English teachers is because there are so few of us relative to market demand. The Taiwanese understand that better than anybody and clearly better than you. You are being shat on, it’s true, but I trully doubt you know where it is raining from. I don’t mean that to be a slight on you personally.

[/quote][/quote]

I understand what you are saying, however if what you think is true why then does a white American make more than a American born Chinese person? Or a local who has spent 15 years studying in the U.S. comes back with a masters degree and gets paid less than Joe Schmoe because he is American born.

Also I was speaking of the whole “cha bu duo” mentality of corner cutting , half assed, slack jawed dog fuckers who make it into middle management positions on guan xi rather than talent.

Yes there is a high market demand a relative few to fill the positions however the halfassed approach of “make a quick buck and hire any white face” rather than a far more talented local is the part of the culture I was addressing as possibly needing closer examination.

Again I say maybe they should examine what it is about their own culture that creates this situation, rather than shitting on us.

I think you see what I am saying… if not F…You!..

just jidding :raspberry:

40

Well, despite the relatively low number of foreigners down here, i get quite a good turnout when I hold Losers Anonymous meetings at my place. I’m thinking of going national as there certainly seems to be a need. At the moment, though, I’m a little too busy with my Bottle Amnesties - these are healing events were folks with drinking disorders bring in their bottles (which they hand over to me) and they share their life stories while I get wrecked.