Enough is Enough: No More Road Deaths

Hi Everyone,

I was completely horrified by the pointless death of the foreigner on his scooter near Wulai last week and it got me thinking. I believe it’s time to effect change to the attitudes and laws which are contributing to the serious injuries and deaths to both foreigners and Taiwanese in Taiwan. And I believe that the foreign community can drive these changes.

Almost all of us have seen, heard of or personally experienced accidents or near accidents in Taiwan. Personally, I don’t know a single foreigner who hasn’t either been injured in an accident or has had some appalling near misses (please don’t share those stories in this forum topic, I’ve set up a seperate topic for these). Taiwan has an appalling road safety record, especially with respect to scooters and motorbikes. There are several factors which contribute to this: poor driver education, poor road standards, over-crowding (not much we can do about that!), weak law enforcement and driver attitudes. Apart from over-crowding, all of these things can and should be changed.

I want to make a proposal and use this forum to assess reaction to it. I propose setting up an organisation with the goal of making these changes. I would hope that we can get both the foreign community and, eventually, locals involved. The idea goes something like this: for an annual memembership fee (which I would hope would be less than $NT200) we would set up an organisation with three main puposes: Education, Legislation and Litigation. Let me explain:

Education: We would start a campaign primarily focussing on driving attitudes in Taiwan; educating people that, for example, driving at 80km/h on a crowded city street just isn’t smart. With so many foreign English teachers in Taiwanese schools we are in a unique position to deliver this message to the next generation of Taiwanese drivers. I’m sure there is other stuff we can do as well : suggestions please!

Legislation: Taiwanese law is, as I understand it, appallingly week when it comes to prosecuting drivers who severely injure or kill someone. I believe that mostly these people kill, and walk away. I propose we campaign heavily for a changes in the law to protect all road users.

Litigation: I propose that if any member of the organisation is killed or injured through the negligent or dangerous driving of another road user, that we provide legal and financial support for him/her (or their family) to sue the other driver to the fullest extent possible. I believe that under Taiwanese law, this is the only mechanism for punishing a driver who hurts or kills someone. I propose that we make it clear, through newspaper advertising and other media, that if seomone injures or kills a member of our group through negligence or dangerous driving, the driver will lose everything they own.

This is not the be-all and end-all: this is just my idea so far. I’d welcome suggestions, support or criticism (hopefully of the constructive kind). If you’re for this campaign and, like me, don’t want to hear about another friend or a friend-of-a-friend being killed on the roads here, then please give your time, effort and (eventually) be prepared to give a little money to make this idea a reality.

Thanks!!

When Shaw Hsiao-ling, wife of Taichung Mayor Jason Hu, was seriously injured in a car accident back in 2006 I really hoped this would finally spur the Taiwanese government into action on dealing with the issue of road safety. A few polite noises were made at the time, but after that nothing of any consequence changed.

Similarly, every year for the first few weeks of January you will see police out on the roads making a show of enforcing traffic laws, but the efforts soon dwindle to their usual degree of patheticness.

I am sure most people will agree with your aims, but how to actually effect change?

Bring back the Japanese for some order.

castrate all traffic offenders, on the spot, with no anaesthetic. then release them back into the general population.

it’s known as CNR, i think.

actually, just issue foreigners with bazookas so they can destroy all offenders immediately.

Sure, you can count me in if you need help.

Doc998, I commend you for taking the initiative for this. I don’t drive a car or a scooter, but as we all know just being a pedestrian in Taiwan is enough to understand how dangerous the situation is. I’d like to help in getting this initiative off of the ground.

What strikes me as most appalling is the lack of concern drivers have for the lives of others on the road. Close calls don’t even register on the average Taiwanese driver’s mind as they race through a tight alley at ridiculously high speeds. There’s seemingly no understanding of the concept that as road conditions change, i.e. your path constricts and accident avoidance options narrow down further, you HAVE to slow down to account for that if you want to have any control over who/what you hit/injure/kill. Instead there’s just an assumption that nothing unexpected will happen. Admittedly that probably makes for a smoother traffic flow, but safety-wise such a mindset is game of Russian roulette.

As a more concrete example, where I live there are a few intersections with no traffic lights or stop signs. Again, maybe half don’t bother slowing down, they just hope nobody else is coming. Some might beep their horn as a warning to potential oncoming traffic. In two years I’ve seen 5 collisions (not while they were happening of course). Someone put up a notice in my building about being more careful around these intersections, but no stop signs have been put up or any action otherwise taken.

Calling this an uphill battle is an understatement. It’s more like scooping water out of the sinking Titanic with a spoon because when it comes down to it, whatever policies Taiwan decides to enact are dependent on the police to actually enforce (better chance of that happening in Taipei I think). But it’s still easily worth the effort; perhaps we could create some waves that might just get the right people to think twice.

I know by coming here and learning about the mindset of a culture other than my own I’ve been able to gain great perspective on the American way of life, both good and bad. In the same way I think we can bring ideas from our own cultures and in a respectful way try to give Taiwanese people fresh perspective on how to show more concern for those on the road (particularly those not protected in 2 tons of metal).

One angle we might be able to take: Taiwanese people are GREAT at showing respect for the elderly and pregnant women on buses and the MRT by giving them seats. Somehow, though, when you separate people and put them in their own vehicles that respect largely turns into a free-for-all battle. I’ve noticed that in American culture there’s much less of a feeling that the car is a psychological “shield”, i.e. if I do something stupid on the road I feel that the least I can do is wave to someone I put in danger as a kind of apology. In Taiwan I never see that kind of communication, people almost never look at each other through their car windows here. It’s as though everyone is in their own world. Good in some ways (road rage doesn’t really even exist in Taiwan), but I think subconsciously this mindset tends to dehumanize others on the road, or really anyone outside their car.

Perhaps we can focus on the hypocrisy of this and try to bring the concept of “saving face” to include people outside the scope of their car. From my understanding of Taiwanese culture I think this could be our best shot. I’m thinking some kind of simple propaganda style poster that clearly expresses this idea. I’ve already got a few ideas swimming around in my head. I’d imagine we’d have support from Taiwan’s government in allowing us to put these posters up and perhaps can even get financial support for the printing costs. There have to be at least a few charities in Taiwan concerned with road safety that might be interested in joining such a promotion.

You believe wrong. They don’t. Both the drivers involved in that guy’s death are facing jail, even though one of them was not even to blame.
I suggest that before you start trying to set up an organization – in ANY field – it behooves you to first do the research to see if:
a) you can actually do any good.
b) there isn’t already a group or groups dedicated to the same thing
c) make sure that the actions you suggest are even possible
Good luck to you. I suggest that you first go to several of the civic meetings that occur regularly, specifically in your case, the New Garden City Resident’s Association, which has been campaigning for several years to have traffic restrictions enforced on the Wulai road.
Your Chinese, of course, is fluent to the extent that you can take part in these meetings. I don’t suppose you have a vote here, which kind of thwarts your efforts right from the start, but then, walls are made to bang your head against, right?

The police need incentives. First, equip every cop vehicle with a video camera which is always on. Second, give them a BONUS for every dangerous idiot they pull over, including drunk drivers, and those speeding, swerving, using lanes improperly, running lights, tailgating, failing to yield and so on. Third, have supervisors review their video footage routinely, and FINE the police for every dangerous idiot they FAIL to pull over and ticket.

I bet they’d start doing their jobs then. :s

Sandman is correct obviously that we need to do the appropriate research first before anything else. As for researching “if we can do any good”, well that’s simply a ridiculous, defeatist attitude.

I agree that thinking about making any kind of legislative/judicial efforts are a bit premature, right now the best shot we’ve got is to focus on changing some minds in the Taiwanese population. That doesn’t take any permission to do, just ask the Mormons. :wink:

Down the road, if we have success, then yes I think trying to join up with some Taiwanese people (who do speak fluent Chinese, and are familiar with the laws and system here) to make a more substantial difference could be in the cards.

Or a pragmatic one. But go ahead and try. All you have to waste is your time.

Thanks Sandman, but I think you’re using pragmatism here as a euphemism for apathy, or at least indifference. You’re indifferent, that’s fine, but no need to rain on any parades here. :rainbow:

Well, thanks for your suggestions… castration may well be the answer, as it is for so many things…

But seriously, I actually think we’re in a position to effect change. I can’t make all the suggestions (I indicated some basic ideas, which are not fully formed) but I think the first thing to do if people are interested in this thing is to get organised. We can debate how to do this here and end up doing precisely nothing. What I really want to know is: do people agree something should be done and are people prepared to put a little money and some of their time where their mouths are?

I’m serious here… I don’t want a single other person to needlessly die on Taiwanese roads. I would implore you to keep the suggestions sensible, and most of all to indicate if you’re willing to make a difference and try to do soemthing about this. Funny suggestions are cool, but this isn’t the place - let’s think about how not to make another statisitic about that guy who was felled in the most pointless waste coming back from Wulai last week.

well, Dragonbones’s suggestion seems a good one, for a start. improving the quality of the driving test and learner pre-education would be another good place to act. but there is a lot of inertia to be overcome. the general populace attitude to driving is only a reflection of their attitude to law enforcement and harmonious living in all other areas of life. even among the police.

and small things like creating a brigade of traffic fine public servants whose sole aim is ticketing for parking offences would also help, partly by improving general road amenity and space issues by reducing the number of illegally double-parked cars, etc., but also by developing a culture of road discipline. and the city council would benefit too, as you can be 100% sure that the revenue raised would more than cover the wages and administration cost of the ticketing squad.

Indifferent? Then you don’t know me. I DO believe, however, in directing my energies into areas in which they have some chance of success. I DON’T believe in knee-jerk reactions to events, no matter how well-meaning. You’re asking people to devote time and energy to a cause. Give them an idea that their energies will offer results.
As I said, in the case the OP is talking about, he should go up to Garden City and make contact with the campaigners up there. They post notices of all their meetings on the bulletin board at the traffic circle outside the convenience store, and sometimes also in the elevators of the apartment buildings. In Chinese, of course. His voice alone is wasting time. His voice, plus those of a few short-term foreigners, is a waste of time. Those same voices, joined with an organization with the contacts, guanxi and knowledge of the workings of the legislative branch, might carry some weight.

Might. It’s very unlikely, though.

I don’t think a bunch of expats trying to tell Taiwan how to run their country would go over very well. I would suggest concentrating on the expat community. Maybe getting the firms that hire people from overseas to include more warnings and training about traffic safety. Placing public service ads in the expat papers and magazines. Posters. That kind of stuff.

I am not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination, but I think the only thing that would make a significant difference is effectively enforcing the existing laws and getting tough on offenders. Taiwan’s police force is weak and poorly trained. I’ve seen policemen getting pushed around by drunk drivers on several occasions on the evening news. It’s just a disgrace how clueless they seem to be, they are either too soft or too “rambo”, firing away like crazy when encountering a “real” gangster.

One thing they should do is using their expertise and daily experience to make roads and streets safer and giving suggestions to the department responsible for road signs, etc. I can’t imagine that they do a lot in that regard.

As to offenders, make them pay, pay big time for reckless driving and endangering others. Tough fines, driver’s license taken away, jail time for multiple offenders.

Yeah, and driver’s education. Make the new driver’s education and tests really challenging and educative.

What we can do? First of all be a role model. Stopping at red lights is a good start. I’ve seen too many foreigners behaving worse than the average local.

Sandman is of course, 100% right. And in case you hadn’t noticed, Taiwanese don’t like to be lectured by foreigners. I have driven in half a dozen Asian countries and I don’t think the driving skills or attitudes of the Taiwanese are any different to other places. The only difference that seems to contribute to the mortality rate is the number of motorcycles.

No matter how considerate the average driver is, if you are on a little plastic motorcycle sharing a road with 20+ ton trucks, your double zero is going to come up some time. Take the bus or drive a car - your chances of surviving a trip to Wulai increase 100-fold.

A campaign to encourage foreigners not to use scooters would be far more effective in saving lives.

I’m most happy that I’m creating some interest already. I will not, for a second, pretend I know all the facts… I’ve done almost no research, but I know when I go outside I see mayhem and I don’t feel safe. The groups who are campaigning now are having little impact, as far as I can make out. So, why not try something different?
Whenever someone tries to do something like this, there are knockers and nay-sayers, but lets try to be positive.
Thanks for everyones comments. Please keep an eye on this forum, and if it looks like we’ve got something going after a week or so, I’ll call for e-mail adresses and go from there.
Thanks!!!

Let’s face it.

There’s a general pecking order (reflecting wealth and power) that many people, including the Taiwanese, like to ascribe to:

If you’re walking in the street, you’re fair game.

If you’re on a motorcycle, your life is expendable, because you’re nobody.

If you’re in a car, you’re somebody.

If you’re driven in a car, you’re somebody important.

If you’re driven in a motorcade, you’ve made it big time, and you’re above the law.

yeah, ride more bicycles.

sandman is right, Taiwanese do not like to be told how to live by anybody, and especially not by big noses. and unless you can write letters in fluent Chinese to the major papers (I’m certainly not talking Taipei Times here, but perhaps United Daily or similar) and hope to get published, and pretend that you’re anything other than a concerned citizen, how are you going to get the word out on your own?