Ethical dilemma

I have taught at a few high schools in Taiwan and can’t help noticing that there seems to be no shortage of attractive young ladies who appear keen to flirt with teacher. Sometimes they can be very forward.

Last year I even had two students explain to me - in class - that for a girl of 18 to seduce her teacher was a face-gaining activity because it meant that she was the most eligible of all the girls in the school. There was no mention of this being an abuse of the teacher-student relationship and when I tried to explain the concept I got blank looks.

Teaching adults is not much different, and I would be interested to know people’s thoughts on the whole idea of dating students. But I am even more keen to know what you have to say about the idea of shagging schoolgirls.

For the record let me say that I have never dated any of my students, and am not currently in a position to be even contemplating the latter proposition. But I know someone who may be and the topic come up over dinner recently. :smiling_imp:

I’m sorry - where’s the dilemma? I thought the ethics of the situation was self-evident.

As a former community college and university instructor who has been asked out on dates by students, here’s what I think:

Graduate students: Maybe, as long as he or she is not currently your student.

Undergraduates: In traditional situations (start school at 18 years of age, finish at 21 or 22), no way. Not enough maturity to handle the emotional aspects of a physical relationship. Some undergraduates are older, so it might be okay, ethically, if the class is over and grades are handed in before the first date.

High school students: Are you freaking crazy? Even if they are of legal age, you’re causing some serious emotional damage.

I married my teacher… but I was a graduate student at the time.

If for a teacher whether to date a high school girl is an ethical dilemma, then the person with an ethical dilemma needs some serious help. What is going through their f%$*ing head that they would risk everything for a piece of tail. Because when, not if, you are caught, you lose everything. Watch the film, “Election,” for pointers.

If a guy told me he wanted to this and he wasn’t my friend, I’d hit him and report him. If he was my friend, I’d slap the shit out of him and ask him what the hell he is thinking.

At that age(15-18), she’s just experimenting with her sexuality. She doesn’t know what’s going on, but she knows she wants to try and see what kind of attention she can get. To actually go through with sexual relations with her, makes you a pervert and much worse. Most women here don’t even know what their clitoris is for and sex education is way behind the times.

Tell your friend to pick up a bar ho for free and save the high schoolers for vigorous masturbation sessions because no piece of ass is worth jail time.

CYA
Okami

I had a crush on my kindergarten teacher. I even kissed her on the lips once. Oh, without the taboo on teacher-student dating, my life might be totally different now :wink:

Now you know how foriegners deal with that situation. Now ask some of your local counterparts.

Taiwanese girls are still children at 25. Whether she’s 14 or 20, she’s still going to emotionally be like a little girl. You can have a sensible conversation with a 17 year old Irish or English girl. How many adult-level conversations have you had with a 17 year old Taiwanese girl ?

I don’t see the point in risking your job over it. If you like young girls, there’s plenty of twenty-somethings out there who look and act like they’re 14.

[quote=“hexuan”]Taiwanese girls are still children at 25. Whether she’s 14 or 20, she’s still going to emotionally be like a little girl. You can have a sensible conversation with a 17 year old Irish or English girl. How many adult-level conversations have you had with a 17 year old Taiwanese girl ?

I don’t see the point in risking your job over it. If you like young girls, there’s plenty of twenty-somethings out there who look and act like they’re 14.[/quote]

There are plenty of 30-somethings who act like teenagers too.

[quote=“Alleycat”][quote=“hexuan”]Taiwanese girls are still children at 25. Whether she’s 14 or 20, she’s still going to emotionally be like a little girl. You can have a sensible conversation with a 17 year old Irish or English girl. How many adult-level conversations have you had with a 17 year old Taiwanese girl ?

I don’t see the point in risking your job over it. If you like young girls, there’s plenty of twenty-somethings out there who look and act like they’re 14.[/quote]

There are plenty of 30-somethings who act like teenagers too.[/quote]

And it’s not just the girls…

This has to be just about the dumbest question I’ve seen here. If the answer isn’t totally obvious to you, you have no business being a highschool teacher. This kind of game - and don’t forget that it’s a GAME for the girls - of flirting with the teacher goes on everywhere, not just with giggly Taiwanese girls.

I remember back when I landed my first teaching gig as a T.A. at university handling freshman comp. Imagine being a wee lad yourself of 24 (all healthy males in at that age, their early 20s, have only one thing on their mind 90% of the time), just barely out of undergraduate college yourself, having to lecture nubile undergrad hotties just a few years younger than yourself. I’ll readily admit that a few times I let my professionalism slip and couldn’t help giving an unconscious se lang look when, say, on my first day in class a quite buxom blonde leaned forward in her chair to ask me a question, and as I turned to answer her my eyes bulged at her twin…well, she quickly realized to have enough sense to button her shirt up a bit more modestly, but the damage was done - the whole class had seen my looking pervy at one of my students. And on the first day of class - talk about getting off on the wrong foot!

Some of the girls may have gotten the wrong impression from that first impression, but as a lowly T.A. I knew that I would have instantly been sacked for even so much as giving the impression of any sort of improper relationship with any of my students. (Professors are another story - I knew a couple of sleazes at uni who were able to get away with that type of thing, because of their position) At American highschools it’s the same kind of story - teenage girls will flirt with the teacher. I substitute taught at a “vocational highschool” (read: dumping ground for druggie burnouts and budding hoodlums) back in the States for a hellish year (because I was the only guy they could get to do it; all the other substitute teachers would nervously make some excuse and hang up the phone when asked to come in to that school for the day). Some of those highschool girls hit on me very crudely, penning filthy mash notes I found on my desk, walking up to me to start a conversation with half their blouse unbuttoned, etc… In comparison, a gaggle of undeveloped giggling Taiwanese schoolgirls with the physiques of 12-year-olds (even if they’re 18, most of them still look like little girls) saying, “Hello, teacher! You so handsome boy!” aren’t even on the radar. Even the Taiwanese college students aren’t that much of a problem - the best they can manage is to stammer and giggle, and when I respond by trying to talk to one of the girls, half the time she and her friends blush & giggle and quickly shuffle away to hide.

Is the poster talking about “dating” in the sense of going to MacDonald’s and then a movie? What is wrong with that?

I don’t think he’s really asking an ethical question, but bragging. Lots of men would kill to be in that situation.

As I pointed out in my post above, just about EVERY male teacher who is relatively young and reasonable looking has to deal with flirting from female students. It comes with the territory. Teenage girls like to explore the boundaries of their sexual power, is all - 95% of the time they don’t mean anything by it, like the Taiwanese college girls that shamelessly giggle and flirt with me in class but then blush and run away when I actually turn around and try to talk to them.

A teacher bragging about his students flirting with him is like a guy bragging about picking up chicks in a bar - it just comes with the territory. Nothing special, shoes millions of fellow guys have trod in before.

What’s the legal age of consent in Taiwan, anyway?? Strictly for informational purposes, you understand. :mrgreen:

Thirty-seven.

Administrator’s note: I thought it was thirty-eight.

As I pointed out in my post above, just about EVERY male teacher who is relatively young and reasonable looking has to deal with flirting from female students. It comes with the territory. Teenage girls like to explore the boundaries of their sexual power, is all - 95% of the time they don’t mean anything by it, like the Taiwanese college girls that shamelessly giggle and flirt with me in class but then blush and run away when I actually turn around and try to talk to them.

A teacher bragging about his students flirting with him is like a guy bragging about picking up chicks in a bar - it just comes with the territory. Nothing special, shoes millions of fellow guys have trod in before.[/quote]
I’d be really curious what Taiwanese male instructor counterparts do when they get in these situations. Why do I get the feeling a lot are probably screwing their students.

As I pointed out in my post above, just about EVERY male teacher who is relatively young and reasonable looking has to deal with flirting from female students. It comes with the territory. Teenage girls like to explore the boundaries of their sexual power, is all - 95% of the time they don’t mean anything by it, like the Taiwanese college girls that shamelessly giggle and flirt with me in class but then blush and run away when I actually turn around and try to talk to them.

A teacher bragging about his students flirting with him is like a guy bragging about picking up chicks in a bar - it just comes with the territory. Nothing special, shoes millions of fellow guys have trod in before.[/quote]
I’d be really curious what Taiwanese male instructor counterparts do when they get in these situations. Why do I get the feeling a lot are probably screwing their students.[/quote]
Well according to my wife more than one girl in her English class at school in Shanghai was screwing the teacher. How you verify this of course is another matter…!

You mean that one teacher was shagging a number of his students from the same class?
:sunglasses: Shanghai here I come! :sunglasses:

The age of consent here is 16. Speaking as an amateur ethicist, I remind all interested parties that just because it’s legal, doesn’t make it right.

Dating a high school girl may well “give face” to her, in the sense that she might think it is something to brag about to her friends. American junior high and high school girls do the same thing (“I’M dating a senior! I’M dating a college boy!”) in much the same spirit that they dye their hair green. However, there are other considerations involved here besides their #$%^ face. For example, their well-being and life prospects, which I hope your friend can perceive are likely to suffer from being treated as a sex toy at this formative time in their life.

Leaving aside such things as disease and pregnancy, what about self-image and respect? And what patterns for future relationships are you setting for them? Sex is chemically addictive–do you really want to introduce them to ever-more-extreme behavior? Your friend has the opportunity to be a positive model, to make their future lives better. This is something he can be proud of later, and not ashamed of (which he should be of the other choice).

Did you ever see the bumper sticker “Use things. Love people.” (Not vice versa!) It’s a good rough-and-ready ethical guide (since fine details of Utilitarian, Kantian, or Aristotelian ethics won’t really be of any practical help to your friend here).

Likely reactions of school authorities unfortunately vary a lot. Yes, many of them are probably partaking of forbidden fruit. At my school, I would be fired in about two minutes for this (and these are college students!), so it’s not true that everyone is lackadaisical about it.

And as for the possibility of dating several at once, some of the older hands here will remember the unfortunate teacher at Tai Da who was in that situation, and ended up castrated.